You'll need nerves of steel to work with AI agents
Posted by theorchid 1 day ago
Comments
Comment by anonymous908213 1 day ago
> But GPT also offers a $100 plan with five times the usage limits. And how long would that last me?
Sol usage is basically unlimited on the $100 plan if you're human-in-the-loop, reviewing the code, and not doing some useless Gas Town crime against humanity.
Comment by willio58 1 day ago
Comment by perching_aix 1 day ago
Comment by j45 1 day ago
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Comment by j45 21 hours ago
Comment by lnkdinsuxs 1 day ago
What are some uses for which you found Luna to be unusable garbage?
From my side, I use Harbor to score tasks and Luna certainly performs when the prompt is either well or overspecified.
Comment by thierrydamiba 1 day ago
Comment by bulbar 1 day ago
I have managed to burn 500 GitHub credits on a task with Sol 6.1 Max, but mostly it's below 10 for short stuff. Opus typically being more expensive by a factor of 5-10.
So, full agreement.
Comment by josh-wrale 1 day ago
Comment by gadflyinyoureye 1 day ago
My biggest complaint is that it melds IO concerns such as timeout, with business requirements. Normally, I just to put that in the IO layer. After that, it’s basically done.
Given my pattern, a new feature normally involves Luna creating 20 to 50 files. After it thinks it’s done with its work, a Sol agent will review the code. This loop goes twice. If there’s still issues, I have to deal with them. I’ve not had to deal with them.
This when I’m at work. At home I do pretty much this but with GLM 5.3 Flash. Even less money.
Comment by epolanski 1 day ago
If it's used for that then using anything more powerful is just inefficient usage of your tokens.
Comment by anonymous908213 1 day ago
Comment by greenavocado 1 day ago
Luna medium effort is very slightly better than its output and completes tasks in 5-10x less time.
Comment by slopinthebag 1 day ago
for myself anything over medium overthinks and is worse.
Comment by anonymous908213 1 day ago
Comment by iJohnDoe 1 day ago
Also, unless I’m overlooking something, you’re spending time within non-codex models, so you’re not going to get the results you’re looking for.
Comment by slopinthebag 1 day ago
when i built my own harness i had to use sol 6.1 medium, luna, deepseek, etc made too many mistakes, but i was full-on vibecoding it. in other projects when i put more effort into it, models like luna, deepseek, etc do just fine.
Comment by yubblegum 1 day ago
Your comment could be misread as rude by an insecure ("8 digit") person who read that as a challenge to their intelligence and skills, however the reply they gave to your comment is the very defition of rude.
Comment by anself 1 day ago
I follow a specific process with agents, and it works reasonably well: 1) describe my intended feature or change and then say “please recapitulate my intention and write an implementation plan” 2) read the plan carefully and refine it, make any corrections 3) tell the agent to go, but I check in frequently as it’s going. I watch the stream of thought and make course corrections or pull it out of rabbit holes 4) carefully review the result. Checking that tests actually fail, removing unnecessary changes 5) add instructions in AGENTS.md if I’ve found a new behavior that needs redirection
Comment by greenowl 1 day ago
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Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
I understood there were still people asking this 12 months ago. But still?
You could only possibly be doubting the time savings if you simply haven't used agentic development, whether Claude Code or other.
You have to understand, by now you basically sound like someone asking how much time you could be saving by writing in Python, instead of just jumping right in and coding assembly yourself.
If you're still asking the question, you just need to bite the bullet and try it.
Comment by bigstrat2003 1 day ago
I've used Claude Code. It produces no time savings.
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
If you post something like that, all it says is that you're either trolling or don't know what you're doing.
There are some very specific areas where it might not help, just the same as there are times where writing assembly is still better.
So what exactly is your motivation in saying "It produces no time savings"? Something so obviously false? I just don't get it.
Comment by saulpw 1 day ago
Comment by phoghed 1 day ago
Comment by greenowl 1 day ago
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
If it's the kind of thing that requires a lot of iterative back-and-forth, like tweaking UX design, then there may be little speedup.
If it's the kind of thing where you there is a clear pass/fail, e.g. writing software to satisfy a comprehensive test suite that is black and white, then it could be 1000x.
The better-defined the task is and the more the agent can evaluate its own success, the bigger the multiplier.
Also, obviously, the more you are working in an area that is more unfamiliar to yourself, the bigger the multiplier.
That's why one morning I'll feel like it's maybe just 2x as it's constantly testing an app in an iOS simulator to see if a UX bug got fixed. That afternoon it might be 10x as it works on some pure code fixes that I still need to verify manually if they work. The next morning it might be something like 200x as I have an incredibly well-defined task that requires a lot of algorithmic research and 10,000 lines of code, but where the end result is easily provably correct or not. That afternoon it could be essentially "inifinity X" as it fixes a problem in a programming language I'm not even familiar with, in a domain it would take me months to get up-to-speed on, in a library I don't know, which solves a bug that is blocking me. Because it's just not something I could have realistically done at all.
So it's incredibly task-dependent. But it's pretty much always faster to some degree. Sometimes a little, sometimes a whole lot, sometimes so much faster it's still a little hard to believe.
Comment by greenowl 1 day ago
For the generic / average developer pushing SaaS features out on their company's webapp how much faster is it, really?
Comment by crazygringo 21 hours ago
For the generic average dev pushing SaaS features, it's way faster. For the kind of stuff where the coding is essentially all boilerplate/connector, something like Claude shines. Because there's already a pattern for everything in the codebase.
If you are able to parallelize your work, e.g. work on 2 or 3 features at a time, your coding time goes down to essentially zero, or rather the time it takes you to write the prompts (hint: use dictation if you're working from home), and all your work is now spent on all the same design and manual testing you were doing before. So depending on what proportion of your time was spent on design/testing vs. writing actual code before, your generic/average dev can see a productivity boost of anywhere from 2x to 20x. It really just depends on what proportion of their job they actually spend literally writing code.
Comment by greenowl 19 hours ago
And FWIW, I'm not arguing against a productivity boost. I've tried the tools. But for me, it was nowhere near 10x, especially when working through a brand new feature or module. Maybe 2x, 3x? Though even that seems generous in some cases. And you give up a lot to get that boost with changing the way you work.
Agreed it's higher and probably closer to a 5x-10x for some boilerplate copy/paste duplication or extension of an already existing feature.
Comment by phoghed 23 hours ago
Comment by mythrwy 1 day ago
I caught myself recently explaining something like "resize the top element 30% and move the bottom element up 10%" (except it was slightly more complex).
After a few iterations of that I thought "what are we doing here? I could adjust a single value in the CSS instead of writing complete sentences!". The problem was, then I'd have to go dig up the values and see how it was laid out, which might take more time then writing the sentences. Its still crazy though.
On the other hand, the basic layout was done in 2 minutes instead of half a day so there was that.
Comment by phoghed 23 hours ago
But if you’re working with a designer and you’re trying to get the agent to get every little thing pixel perfect, they are still complete ass at image understanding at that level. But they can get the broad strokes generally correct.
Comment by ion_trapper 1 day ago
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Comment by fn-mote 1 day ago
My summary of the article: I use a really cheap LLM, and suffer like everyone else using GPT 3.1. This is definitely a throwback to the days not so long ago when LLMs were completely incompetent.
Comment by brainless 1 day ago
What you want is to branch questions in different agents and this is hard UX.
— Why is this function here?
This question can be but ideally should not be sent to an ongoing chat about a codebase. With some previous context, this question should become a separate "branch"/"fork"/"node" - whatever you call it. You can start a new session, share some context from previous chat and ask the question.
The reason is, and forgive me for assuming, if you are in a code/build flow, the LLM may go ahead and take action because it has a lot of previous chats with instructions to edit files.
In my experience the best way to not have these issues is to branch a new session with some context from which file you were looking at or your previous questions but as a read-only investigation.
Comment by jedbrooke 1 day ago
It’s worth taking the time to setup a style guide for your agent to remove llm-isms like this. Somewhat paradoxically, you can even have the agent help write it. Just include a couple of snippets of “bad” phrasing from previous chats, add some commentary about why it’s bad, and what to replace it with, and put that in your system prompt. I could provide examples but the whole point is that you can tailor it to exactly how you want it. This has the added bonus of being a quick sanity check for model quality. If you start noticing llm-ism appear, then likely the model is not following your instruction’s and the thread should be discarded/you need to switch to a better model
Comment by pessimizer 1 day ago
> Okay, let’s move the rule to the top. In the next reply, right in the same chat, I get text with quotation marks again.
Comment by jedbrooke 1 day ago
Or maybe just luna too dumb idk. I’ve even had good success with a style guide on Bonsai 2 27B though so I doubt luna is dumber than that
Comment by Aurornis 1 day ago
Either this is hyperbole or something is wrong. I tried 6.1 Sol for a significant chunk of non-critical work this week and did not encounter usage depletion like this. I ran several tests that went upward of 450K tokens without depleting the 5-hour window, though I didn’t pay attention to how much.
Either this person is exaggerating, or something is extremely wrong with their harness.
I’m equally confused that their solution was to switch to Luna and try to use the small and fast model for big coding tasks. They could have switched to Claude $20/month and had ample Opus usage right new.
Most of the complaints in this article could have been avoided by not using Luna and not using a configuration that’s blowing their quota out for unclear reasons.
Comment by oarfish 12 hours ago
Comment by jbloggs777 1 day ago
raises an eyebrow .. methinks he exaggerates. I don't think my €20 business plan gets more than the plus plan.
A minor README change with basic verification steps is cheap, or you have totally overdone your AGENTS.md / skills / other steering and have it running around in circles.
In general, if the AI needs to dig through a mammoth codebase to make a simple change, it's likely a codebase / design problem.
If you are making a cross-cutting change that needs that, then you plan up front, then divide & conquer.
Comment by skeledrew 1 day ago
Comment by barrkel 1 day ago
You can go a long way with a weak model but you need to instruct it closely like it's a novice engineer. It's not super productive so it's better to have a smarter agent do the direction. The smarter agent will need context. You may be able to save on the context by building better indexes and docs of the code but you'll need to keep those up to date.
Or you could just use a smarter model, and perhaps a two-phase plan->execute modality. And maybe you need to get your payment card out. $200/month is still not a lot of money compared to salaries.
It's tradeoffs all the way.
Comment by bill10 1 day ago
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Comment by loeg 1 day ago
Nerves of steel? Not even close.
I think 90% of the article is the author complaining about (predictably) bad small-model behavior. The large models are much better!
Comment by socketcluster 1 day ago
Comment by ericmcer 1 day ago
Even scarier is something like a legacy change made for a specific client, like “our biggest client needs checkboxes as the UI, do not switch it to a dropdown.” was in a commit message 2 years ago, AI will just overwrite that without thinking.
Comment by socketcluster 1 day ago
My AI agent never has to work with more than 5k lines of code and like 20 files at a time; and most are much smaller than that; like 1k or 2k lines... Even though one of my projects is almost 30k lines, my AI agent never has to consider more than 5k.
It's a very different experience in my day job because the project has more lines, more files and all the files for the entire project are in the same repo and naming is not as clear. In this case, I have to point to the relevant files/context in every session.
Comment by bulbar 1 day ago
> was in a commit message 2 years ago, AI will just overwrite that without thinking.
Should be fixable by telling the model to check if there's a reason why something exists by checking the git history of that piece.
Only talking about Sol Max and Opus.
Comment by devmor 1 day ago
I’m talking about deterministic checkpoints and hooks. In every environment in which I need to use a coding agent I have had to essentially build a harness outside of the harness to be measurably productive. If you’re not using deterministic tools to box in what the agents are capable of doing, the problems you describe are ten times more rampant than anyone wants to admit.
Comment by sam0x17 1 day ago
Comment by jemiluv8 1 day ago
I haven’t experienced anything like that. My first inclination is to shout: skill issue. Because steering these language models is our responsibility. Reading 10 files doesn’t lead to 10% usage gone even on my $20 subscription. Try talking to your internet friends and find a better way to steer these agents.
Comment by maxkxd1 1 day ago
Comment by cadamsdotcom 1 day ago
Bad models & bad harnesses are like blunt knives.
You are ironically more likely to hurt yourself if your knife is blunt - and less likely to get the job done. Once you do get the job done, it'll take longer and suck.
So,
Step 1: delete Cursor.
Life gets better from there.
Comment by xlayn 1 day ago
I suspect the whole reason for how bad models accessed through subscriptions tied to a harness of the provider (looking at you copilot) is that microsoft in the case of copilot "builds into the harness and hence into the model" an intention; and I don't have proofs (which qualifies me to start a popular podcast) but I suspect the harness keeps pushing the model to fix an issue as quickly as possible so the service can appear as "it just bam fixed the issue".
The "sitius altius and fortius" of the technobro is what you see in the tv ad "copilot check my git and fix a bug", how stupid do you think someone has to be to believe it works like that? my instructions to model say that I HATE urgency to make changes, we are researching and until we figure out causes, and understand all the mechanism involved AND THEN AND ONLY THEN we can check what's the actual intention, what business wants... then we can talk about a fix.
Grab a harness that injects the minimum possible and let the agent be and you will see how much difference there is in the quality of the model response.
Comment by jimbobimbo 1 day ago
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Comment by rich_sasha 1 day ago
I’m not a Luddite, and the thing I most need at work now is a mid-seniority dev to support me. I don’t care if their name is Tanner, Prateek, Claude or Luna, I’ll take the help, except the meat-based variant is, IME, near impossible to hire (beats me - so many devs in the market, but the CV stack is deeply underwhelming, and the interviews only worse).
But every time I try to use AI agents - and frankly I only use the frontier ones as work pays for tokens - it’s basically what the author describes. Lots of random changes. The model happily saying it is doing X while also doing !X and also Y and Z, and sometimes gets stuck in some weird loop. Last time (admittedly not a frontier model but not far off) it wrote a Python script which would write another text file, with the contents defined as a concatenation of chr(XX) characters. That was enough.
Fixing or reviewing all this nonsense, or babysitting the model line by line takes more time than doing the damn thing myself.
What makes it worse is the cadence of babysitting an LLM is really awkward. Again, I don’t know what Im doing wrong. But reviewing things every 10 mins destroys my attention span. Even a junior dev is better in this regard - give them something to work on, describe what you need, review 1-3x / day for a week, and you hope to get somewhere. Even if it takes a long time, it’s not a major effort, so long as you’re ok with the latency. LLMs are the opposite - low latency, high noise. Lots of little efforts frequently, and all requiring full attention - because it’s easy to miss the little “rm -rf /” or other Easter egg Claude left.
So in short, it matches the behavior TFA describes. And yet lots of people see to be able to derive a lot of value out of it.
I have a lot of success writing medium length snippets with it, in a conversational style. Sort of up to 500-1000 LOC in things that aren’t challenging. Or building a scaffolding for a webpage. Or a non judgmental, zero lag replacement to SE/SO. But a mid senior dev ain’t that.
It’s not just a rant, any suggestions welcome.
Comment by sadilek 1 day ago
Since what you describe what you want matches my recent switch to working as an "engineering director" of my agents, shameless plug for my own setup (non commercial, open source): https://obeya.si.
Comment by crog 1 day ago
ask why at every answer your agent gives you. when it's clear, set it up. make it work for you, not you fitting the game
i started copy pasting 2 years ago, and it's ok
enjoy!
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