Rust Style Guide

Posted by kaycebasques 16 hours ago

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Comments

Comment by japgolly 8 hours ago

Apply #[non_exhaustive] to publicly-exposed enums seems like a crazy recommendation to me. So much of the power of enums is that when you add a new case the compiler will flag all pattern matches that you need to update, which is a good thing because you're forced to consider each case. Having a catch-all saves dev-time but it risks not appropriately handling new cases becoming a runtime issue instead of a compile time error.

Comment by demurgos 1 hour ago

At scale, `#[non_exhaustive]` is the right default for public enums that are part of your API model when working on a distributed system. You should still be able to opt into exhaustive enums when needed but in practice it's way rarer.

I'm working at a company with a very large Rust codebase with thousands of endpoints. We use multiple repos and each service publishes its API as crates. A few years ago those were manually written and teams used exhaustive enums frequently in their API. It did not prevent runtime issues as older clients could receive responses with new variants from newer servers. It also made versioning painful because semver would dictate a major bump, but Rust's nominal typing means that types from different major versions get different identities, making it very inconvenient to integrate with these types (think shared helper functions, extension traits, ...). This caused people to release new variants in feature bumps and wreck havoc in the dependency tree by breaking compilation of intermediate libs.

Since then we switched to code generation from an IDL for the API model. I was leading this project and decided to produce non_exhaustive enums for the Rust code: it was 2 years ago and the situation drastically improved.

We have a CI step running lints with `non_exhaustive_omitted_patterns` mentionned in an other comment. That's the right approach for such a public API. The big difference is that is that warnings are local to the crate you're working on, so they're more actionable than errors.

This was all in the context of modeling the API of a distributed system. I still tend to use non_exhaustive more often now even for regular helper libraries. It always requires some thought as you need to plan for the forward compat of your code.

Comment by smallnamespace 1 hour ago

> the compiler will flag all pattern matches that you need to update

At Google, the bottleneck is that a team changing a commonly used enum will not know how to update all the broken use sites, since it can be affecting dozens or hundreds of teams.

It is better to decouple the enum change from the use site change and let consuming teams update on their own schedule.

Comment by berkes 1 hour ago

I am not familiar with this flag, but will it force, or at least alert these " consuming teams" that the enum they expected has changed?

Comment by smallnamespace 1 hour ago

No, but Google already has internal tools that can identify use sites and email affected teams.

Note that teams generally manage their own deployments, so even a repo wide code change doesn’t force the update of an older deployed binary.

Comment by i2talics 7 hours ago

It's a double edged sword because without #[non_exhaustive], adding a variant becomes a major semver breaking change. It depends on your priorities. I think that there is probably a subtle difference between enums that are expected to gain variants in minor releases (a common example is error types) and enums that are expected to be closed (something like Option or SocketAddr).

Honestly what I tend to see is that most enums are not exposed publicly at all besides maybe error types and configuration options (where the user usually constructs but does not match on them). In both cases #[non_exhaustive] is valid. For all of the non-public enums you get to enjoy the compiler exhaustiveness enforcement.

Comment by 3 hours ago

Comment by rendaw 5 hours ago

What people seem to be missing here is that enums are just a reflection of functionality. If you make your enum non exhaustive then add a field, and something stops working because it's now missing critical messages, it's still a breaking change!

It's always up to callers to decide to handle everything, or decide that additions are non-fatal and use a wildcard branch to ignore them. The same enum could need to be exhaustive for one use case, or subset matched by another.

Comment by alfiedotwtf 4 hours ago

Adding a field and it stops compiling > adding a field and it stops working

Comment by froh 3 hours ago

can't you explicitly express a catch-all in a check?

edit: I don't know rust. in other languages he's such catch all patterns exist and you have to either capture each possible value explicitly or you express "here in this fu, I take care of these and all others I do that..."

Comment by mort96 3 hours ago

Yes you can, but if a new enum value appears, there's probably something you want to do in response which your default case didn't do.

Comment by eptcyka 3 hours ago

Swift gas a facility for this type of thing, Rust could adopt it too.

Comment by ninkendo 7 hours ago

The corollary to your point is that you have to be extremely cautious what enums you make into public API if you want to be serious about backwards compatibility… likely wanting to include more flexible variants like “unknown” or “generic”, to make your API more flexible. But this ends up being the same problem by a different name, because it still turns things into runtime bugs, just like non-exhaustive enums do.

It’s the eternal struggle between flexibility and strictness that doesn’t really have a silver bullet answer. Or maybe it’s better framed as “flexibility, safety, backwards compatibility, pick any two”?

Comment by Thom2000 4 hours ago

FWIW this future lint `non_exhaustive_omitted_patterns` will help a bit: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89554

Comment by quotemstr 5 hours ago

This is from the people who make mandatory protobuf fields "optional".

I just fundamentally disagree with Google on how to evolve data structures. Sloppy open-domain protobuf field presence, enum values, whatever are illusory extension points. Better to have discrete versions of a data structure --- Foo1, Foo2, Foo3, etc., and rigid checking in each one than to have just one "Foo" with optional-everything that changes implicitly over time.

Comment by akshayshah 7 hours ago

Sensible attitude for a one-team codebase, but much harder in a google3-sized megarepo…plus the policy matches protobuf enum semantics.

Comment by 3 hours ago

Comment by Groxx 6 hours ago

It's usually not too hard to work around stuff like this - wrap it and map it to an exhaustive type, and use tests to ensure that your `unreachable!()` is correct.

Comment by zeroCalories 6 hours ago

Why? Their justification seems reasonable to me. If other teams depend on your enum then you could end up in two really bad cases. First is that you end up having to fix a ton of code just to update your enum, which has it's own headaches. Second is another team's build starts to fail when they update dependencies. Horrible churn to cause for your org. Better to just have them design around non_exhaustive.

Comment by Pavilion2095 4 hours ago

There is already a catch-all option if you don't need exhaustiveness in some part of your code.

Comment by zelphirkalt 4 hours ago

The first one is not a "really bad case", but the intention of having a strict enum. You want to be force to update, in order to not miss any places, where the change could cause an error. That's the very benefit of it.

Second case is the same. The other team needs to definitely know, that their assumptions expressed in their current code are broken and need to be adjusted.

We just need to stop to take whatever shit Google is doing as the one bar to measure all others, and need to understand that they may be different requirements than a typical business. We are not Google.

Comment by alfiedotwtf 4 hours ago

> you could end up in two really bad cases. First is that you end up having to fix a ton of code just to update your enum, which has it's own headaches. Second is another team's build starts to fail when they update dependencies

If you really don’t care about compiler warnings, what’s the actual point of using Rust?

Comment by monocasa 15 hours ago

Can anyone expand on the chromium specifc guidelines on super tiny crates, particularly no nesting of modules/source files?

That feels like the ~2010 era of people saying that functions should be as small as possible. That lead me to reviewing a lot of code where every function was one or two lines and you couldn't actually see what was going on anymore through the layers of unneeded abstraction.

I want to give chrome the benefit of the doubt, but that seems really goofy.

Comment by evmar 14 hours ago

In Cargo-built Rust, a crate is costly in terms of abstraction because it needs its own directory, Cargo.toml, src/ subdir, etc. In the Google build systems I've worked with in the past (and it looks like Chromium follows) they instead put source files in the same directory mixing languages and with finer-grained libraries as they see fit.

Given that a crate is the unit of build parallelization in Rust, there's a benefit to more crates especially when they don't cost much cognitive overhead. You could imagine using crates in the way you'd typically use separate mods in a normal Rust project.

I dug around in their code search to find some examples but didn't see much Rust in there, seems still early. I think https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:tes... has ~4 Rust files that end up separate crates though. (One of them defines a proc macro so even in a Cargo built Rust project it would need to be in its own separate crate, I think!)

Comment by evmar 14 hours ago

It looks like there's some macro-based import that does import by path, so crate names are generated:

https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:tes...

Comment by skohan 15 hours ago

It might have to do with optimizing compile times. A crate is the unit of compilation, so small crates increase the likelihood that you won't end up recompiling a lot of unrelated code.

I guess smaller crates and avoiding nested modules could also help optimize for making the code greppable by coding agents without blowing up context windows.

Comment by i2talics 14 hours ago

The granularity of crates shouldn't really impact what kinds of abstractions you build. You can still have as many modules and types as you need, and as big of functions as you need, but its saying you should organize the modules into separate crates instead of one large crate. They even call out the trait coherence rules, saying that you can just make your library bigger instead of forcing a more awkward design in the pursuit of a smaller crate.

I think one benefit of small crates is that it gives you more granularity in linking and dependency graphs, which is especially relevant for rebuilds. At a previous job we had a monolithic "utilities" crate, and this caused problems when you tried to depend on it for the IP address utilities but this brought in the radio frequency utilities. When one of these submodules got an update the versioning would excessively propagate downstream to every consumer. If this was organized as small "net-utils" and "rf-utils" crates then maybe it would not have been as much of an issue.

Comment by vvillena 14 hours ago

This being Google, I assume everything goes into a single gigantic monorepo that gets thrown at Blaze. If the unit of compilation is the crate, it makes sense for them to prefer that crates are as small as possible.

Comment by loeg 15 hours ago

Maybe one or two line functions are a totally different scale than "all source code files in a crate"? So like, one is problematic in a way the other is not. And the guidance is "prefer small," not "always super tiny." See: "Larger crates are allowed" later on. And also see: "Rationale: Fine-grained library targets are recommended in Chromium due to the massive size of our codebase, non-local effects of adding dependencies in the build graph, and to improve performance of parallel compilation and build caching."

Comment by hugmynutus 8 hours ago

blaze/bazel doesn't support incremental crate compilation. It also can't, by design, as incremental compilation depends on incremental change to local build artifacts which isn't deterministic.

So a single crate has to be as small as possible so builds are fast & cachable.

Comment by pornel 13 hours ago

You get stricter enforcement of public APIs and dependencies. You can't import anything you haven't declared as a dep, and cycles are impossible. Rustdoc by default shows only your intended public API.

OTOH if you have one crate with lots of modules, it's tempting to import anything anywhere and use pub(crate). Rustdoc needs to be configured to show private items if you want to see internal APIs.

Comment by tcdent 13 hours ago

Exactly. Being able to organize your code in a way that provides distinct responsibilities per crate is just good practice.

And then the ability to enforce a formalized layer between crates and the way that they assemble into your application (i.e. the public API) is powerful for comprehension and maintainability. I go as far as documenting each crate with its own README that presents it as a standalone component with usage instructions, much like an open source library, even if it's only ever used in a single system.

Comment by skavi 12 hours ago

Forces better code structure in my experience (ignoring orphan rule). modules can have dependency cycles and things get tangled together. crates disallow cycles.

Comment by dnautics 15 hours ago

Compilation speed?

Comment by epage 13 hours ago

> Type names should be imported and used unqualified

This just pushes people to have redundant information in types (`IoError` instead of `io::Error`).

Unless a type is widely recognized (like `HashMap`), I prefer to have them fully qualified so I have the contextual meaning for it. If I am working with a generic name like `Source`, what does that mean? I shouldn't have to look up in the imports to understand the code (or only understand it through an LSP).

Reducing imports also reduces unnecessary merge conflicts.

Comment by Blikkentrekker 13 hours ago

It says below that that in cases of things like `io::Error` it should be used as that though, as in “cases of ambiguities”. It specifically speaks of not using `regex::Regex` but just `Regex` which seems more reasonable to me.

Comment by B-Con 11 hours ago

Google's style guides tend to reduce namespace redundancy.

Everyone remembers finding some hideous name like foo.widget.widgetBuilder.widgetFactory in Java or something. It's nice to have naming rules, or at least guidelines, focused on trimming redundancy and keeping the signal high.

Comment by cobbzilla 5 hours ago

> some hideous name like foo.widget.widgetBuilder.widgetFactory in Java or something

NO, it’s beautiful! https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris...

Comment by epage 12 hours ago

That guideline is in response to an API design. I'm speaking to how the default stance (import types) feeds back into API design.

Comment by boxed 3 hours ago

Having (hobby) worked with ObjectiveC/Cocoa and then later in Swift, I must say that although NSString looks ugly, it's glorious when it comes to trying to search for anything compared to String.

Comment by wtetzner 13 hours ago

Honestly I think having blanket rules in either direction is a bad idea. Sometimes it makes sense to qualify things, sometimes it's clearer if you don't.

Comment by preommr 13 hours ago

Google has lost a lot of it's sheen for me. It's not really the 2010s anymore where their brand really used to mean something as a step above all the other tech companies.

Nowadays, I care about their recommendations as much as the ones from microsoft, or ibm.

Still big companies, lots of smart people, but nothing above norm.

Comment by nsib96 6 hours ago

Which companies would you look up to nowadays? Genuinely curious

Comment by chungus 2 hours ago

I'll kick it off:

Oxide computing.

Comment by yhavin 5 hours ago

Deserves its own Ask HN.

Comment by afdbcreid 11 hours ago

Here's a tip most Rust users don't know about extension traits: if you put `#[rust_analyzer::prefer_underscore_import]` above your trait (and you're using rust-analyzer and not RustRover), autocompletion and the import assist will import the trait `as _` by default, which is very useful for extension traits.

Comment by tcallred 14 hours ago

I really appreciate that they distinguish between library code and application code. Rust gets too much of a bad rap for its complicated generic code, but in most application scenarios you are not writing code nearly that complex or generic.

Comment by JoeDohn 15 hours ago

This is nice, I have been lurking on google and meta rust projects, mimicking and picking style by prompting LLMs to distill it, taking a look at fmt & clippy configs helps too.

But it wasn't as coherent and reliable from project to project like this guide. Kudos to google on this one !

Comment by i2talics 14 hours ago

Much of this is very standard across the Rust ecosystem but it's very helpful to have it all in one place.

Comment by petcat 15 hours ago

At this point, is anybody writing new C or C++? It seems like they are sunset languages even at the big corps.

Comment by fasterik 15 hours ago

I'm pretty sure most big software projects (Windows, Linux, Chrome, gcc, LLVM, AAA game engines, ...) are still writing a lot of new C and C++. Pretty much everyone in the embedded world is as well.

As a solo programmer, I still prefer C and C++. In fact, as I've incorporated LLMs in to my workflow, I've been increasingly drawn toward C and its simplicity. A lot of the QoL features of C++ simply aren't needed when you're writing less code manually.

Comment by loeg 10 hours ago

Using LLMs to write C feels a little silly to me. (Unless you really need C.) LLMs are still imperfect; you're still going to get a lot of UB bugs like human-authored C.

Comment by Groxx 6 hours ago

Particularly because so much of the code they're trained on has those flaws.

Comment by anthk 11 hours ago

Chrome should be ported to Rust long ago. on Windows, half of the UI can migrate tomorrow with ease.

Comment by pjmlp 4 hours ago

Windows is more likely to keep being a mix of .NET and C++ than anything else.

Other than a few examples given in the past, the Rust adoption among WinDev doesn't seem to be really taking off like in Azure.

Indeed C# is getting more low level coding features, and the unsafe memory model is being redone in .NET 11 for a reason.

Comment by boredatoms 9 hours ago

With the ram shortage they could start by removing all the web-views that should have been native

Comment by npalli 14 hours ago

Far from it. Until Rust can read C++ code seamlessly, there will be more code written in C++ than Rust for the foreseeable future. HPC, Finance, AI, Games, Databases, Hardware all continue to be written in C++.

Comment by simonask 12 hours ago

Serious people in all of those industries are thinking about whether and how Rust is a fit for their needs.

Like, I agree that C++ will be around for a long while, but the writing is on the wall.

Comment by 20k 11 hours ago

For game development its hard to see how Rust can really replace C++ in practice. It'll take 15 years at minimum to replace the current development ecosystem for building games

Comment by simonask 56 minutes ago

Large game engines consist of many medium to large software libraries stitched together. What you're likely to see is that each such library is gradually either rewritten or replaced by Rust code, with an FFI compatibility layer matching the existing ABI where possible.

There's no reason to think that current game engines will have their fundamental APIs around scene management, serialization, entity composition, and so on, ported directly to Rust, because these things are typically designed around available language features. For example, an engine written in C++ might have its own version of `dynamic_cast` and RTTI, and that's going to be an extremely awkward design in any other language.

I think 15 years is too high, but I agree that it will be a while, because a triple-A game engine is a huge investment.

Comment by rudedogg 9 hours ago

Also, the language just isn’t suited well to making games. Can anyone point me to a successful Rust game? Bevy game?

Comment by dwattttt 3 hours ago

The Gnorp Apologue (https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/18ul125/writing_a_gam...) has done pretty well.

Comment by QuantumNomad_ 5 hours ago

Successful as in they completed building the game, or successful as in lots of copies sold?

Comment by 8 hours ago

Comment by tonyhart7 10 hours ago

"It'll take 15 years at minimum to replace the current development ecosystem for building games"

15 years of pre LLM or post LLM ?????

Comment by loeg 10 hours ago

I agree momentum for Rust is growing, but disagree that it is obvious the writing is on the wall for C++. Like, Java and C# didn't kill C++, either. In all likelihood, these languages will all coexist for a long, long time.

Comment by npalli 11 hours ago

Strange position in 2026. If there is any writing in the wall it is this. Nobody is going to be writing Rust code from scratch given where LLMs are already now, much less in 5 years. A golden rule of software is fresh coding is a small part of the lifecycle most of it is maintenance. You may be able to get people to write Rust code (vibe code it), however a tiny minority of them will want to maintain LLM generated Rust code!! Rust will most likely be an intermediate representation - a security/formality check of sort - before converted into the appropriate heterogenous code across GPU/CPU/TPU/XPUs. Even there some other better representation will supplant it as Rust's ideas will be found too limiting. The idea that you as a programmer will sit and write Rust source code is just going to look very archaic. Thank god for LLMs for saving everyone just in time.

Comment by simonask 1 hour ago

I keep seeing this take, but oddly only on Hacker News, never anywhere else. It's still utterly delusional.

Comment by 59nadir 2 hours ago

I have been porting our Odin code to C(23) lately because it's better than anything else I've found in terms of language simplicity + tooling quality. 75% of our new code right now is C and in my estimation that'll be 100% in about a month, and we'll likely be done porting ~150 kLoC into a similarly sized C code base.

Even disregarding tooling I'm actually happier writing C than (even) Odin because it's really just a natural end state of changes I'd made to how I write code over the past 7-8 years and what I expect from a language (to not do much, and to not get in the way).

It's hard to compete with the tangibles of writing/using C:

- Somehow it has shorter compile times than everything else still, particularly for release builds?

- Everything that matters (to me) has C bindings.

- All the tools just work and they work well (and a lot of them are made specifically for C anyway).

- The compilation model is actually better, more straight forward and easier to make fast than languages that try to "fix" it, unless you sit there fighting it and overcomplicate it with overwrought build systems. (`make` is better than I used to give it credit for, though).

I think Ada is the only language that could peel my attention away from C at the moment, which is ironic given my "Don't do much, get out of my way" stance. It turns out you can do more if you're sensibly designed, have the right escape hatches and actually provide real, useful features (basically every feature regarding arrays in Ada and their interplay with other features like index types, etc.). Ada is not as easy to port from Odin, though, and Ada would be a much bigger gamble than C in so many ways. We don't mind writing the code we use ourselves (we in fact prefer it), but in Ada a lot of that code would be decidedly alien to how Ada seems to work in many ways.

With that said, I do have an Ada port of a game I was working on that does illustrate a lot of upsides. It's a different possible end state.

P.S. I've tried Zig, I wrote Zig for several years before I started using Odin, it's what got me back to imperative, small, native languages. It's what started this journey back to C.

Comment by xedrac 14 hours ago

Unfortunately for me, yes. Some companies are very risk adverse and would rather stick with the devil they know. They have no idea what they are sacrificing.

Comment by skohan 15 hours ago

C/C++ is still relevant for HPC, where you want to carefully optimize memory management.

Comment by vlovich123 14 hours ago

Hate to break it to you but Rust is equally capable of doing all the same memory management optimizations.

Comment by skohan 13 hours ago

I mean you can, but C/C++ is way more ergonomic for dealing with memory layouts.

Comment by Philpax 13 hours ago

Is it? How so?

Comment by FuckButtons 9 hours ago

It doesn’t have a stable abi, how could it be easier? I would argue that the vast majority of what rust gives you comes at a direct cost of precisely the ergonomics of manual memory management. It’s a tradeoff that makes sense much of the time, but it’s still very obviously a tradeoff.

Comment by vlovich123 8 hours ago

It’s easier in that you can cordon off the tricky parts being unsafe and define safe mechanics. Proof point: the Linux kernel using more and more rust and at once the platform support gets there more if the core memory management and what not will start getting ported too.

There’s also work actively ongoing to make certain constructs even easier to express more ergonomically and letting user programs implement some of the magic that’s currently restricted to the standard library

Comment by skohan 4 hours ago

The Linux kernel has to balance security and performance concerns, security probably being primary, so it makes sense to make the tradeoff for more safety with worse ergonomics for memory management.

If all you care about is performance, you're going to be fighting Rust's memory model for no reason.

Comment by tialaramex 2 hours ago

> If all you care about is performance, you're going to be fighting Rust's memory model for no reason.

If you actually care about performance where you'd start is with measurements. What we see so much from C++ isn't measurements it is dogma. Things C++ forces on you must dogmatically be imagined as free without measuring them, things C++ does not have get treated as expensive, again without measuring so as to justify their absence.

For example, the unstable sort in C++ (std::sort) is typically implemented in a way which introduces Undefined Behaviour if your ordering isn't coherent either because you didn't realise that was mandatory or through some minor programming error. In contrast all of Rust's unstable sort implementations have been entirely safe even in the face of such mistakes.

And your dogma might tell you OK, but the C++ sort must be faster. That's why we're doing unsafe things, it must be faster. Except, nope, slower. Slower, but unsafe. Pointlessly worse. Only acceptable because of dogmatic belief.

Comment by skohan 2 hours ago

With all due respect, are you sure you're not the one being dogmatic here?

90% of the code I write these days is Rust. It's a great tool, and the performance/safety balance, as well as general developer experience makes it well-suited to a wide variety of applications.

But in the past I've also built an ECS implementation. For that to optimize performance (and yes I did measure this) you want to do bulk memory allocations memory, pack bytes in order to minimize cache misses, and dispatch multiple threads to read and write concurrently over your memory pool. You can do all that in Rust, and people have, but it's a pain in the ass.

And for example, if I were working on a high-frequency trading application, where every millisecond of additional latency represents millions of dollars of lost revenue, I wouldn't waste my time fighting the burrow checker just so I can have a prettier program.

Rust is an amazing tool, but that doesn't mean it's the optimal tool for every job.

Comment by Philpax 27 minutes ago

I suspect that the additional friction in doing these things in Rust is still largely outweighed by everything else. I won't deny the friction - it's definitely there - but it has never been large enough for me to consider using anything else (especially reverting to C++!)

With that being said, I did write a compiler to specifically help me match C++ memory layouts in Rust [0], so I might be an outlier case :-)

[0]: https://github.com/ferrobrew/pyxis

Comment by tialaramex 48 minutes ago

> With all due respect, are you sure you're not the one being dogmatic here?

Obviously like Michael Burry it is always possible that I'm wrong and I can't see why. But I did give you a specific example where the dogma says well we have to choose this unsafe way to do it, but the reality is that's not only unsafe it's also slower. It is just worse.

I am glad to hear that you measured. I've been yelling at people for not measuring for much longer than Rust has existed - if people measure and choose C++ because the numbers were better I feel a lot better about that outcome.

As to being the right tool, I firmly believe we should use a lot more niche languages which do only one narrow thing very well. One common thing you'll see argued about the Memory Safe languages is that they need runtime bounds checks and such checks are a performance cost the unsafe languages do not incur. WUFFS illustrates that if we're willing to give up generality we can have a language which is entirely safe but doesn't do runtime bounds checks - because it proved mathematically at compile time that your code has no bounds misses so such checks are needless.

Arguably for HFT in particular the dirty secret is that if things go badly enough wrong you just say "Oops" and get a do-over because money isn't real.

Comment by SkiFire13 3 hours ago

> It doesn’t have a stable abi

No, Rust _has_ a stable ABI, it's the C ABI. It just isn't the default.

Comment by Philpax 32 minutes ago

For more detail: https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/type-layout.html#r-layou...

I can confirm that this has been sufficient for all of my memory layout needs, including interfacing with existing C/C++ code in memory.

Comment by smj-edison 7 hours ago

You don't have to deal with Rust's aliasing rules for &mut and &.

Comment by j1elo 14 hours ago

Today I went over a TODO comment from 2007 in a C++ codebase that is still evolving very vividly, year after year. Trust me, for well established projects C++ is there to stay.

Comment by pjmlp 14 hours ago

Games, anything that depends on LLVM, GCC, CUDA, SYSCL,....

Ah and Rust's compiler backend dependency on LLVM and in the future GCC as well.

Comment by loeg 15 hours ago

Plenty of new C++ going on at my BigCorp employer.

Comment by redox99 6 hours ago

Console/PC gaming is mostly C++ (and scripting/blueprints/etc).

Comment by geertj 6 hours ago

In a few years, Claude Mythos will be remembered as the moment C++ died. I am serious, very senior people are really scared of LLM found vulnerabilities and are pushing strongly for Rust.

Comment by zelphirkalt 4 hours ago

In a few years probably no one will be thinking or talking of Mythos any longer, as it is just the next marketing item in the never ending chain of items to be released as the next scary thing.

Comment by tkz1312 15 hours ago

I've been extracting a lot of verified C from theorem provers recently.

Comment by neutronicus 15 hours ago

C++ seems alive and well in the defense space. The big contractors near me have tons of C++ job postings and I don't think I've seen a single one looking for Rust.

Comment by tormeh 10 hours ago

The new drone companies seem to favor Rust more. Helsing sponsors a lot of Rust conferences and stuff. Quantum Systems has job postings for embedded Rust. For companies that don't have a lot of legacy influencing their decisions, Rust is pretty much always going to be in their software stack. The big primes will probably come around to it in a decade or so.

Comment by thomashabets2 15 hours ago

Do you know if the code bases are of the kind where dynamic memory (among many other features) is disallowed?

Comment by 3eb7988a1663 10 hours ago

Defense industry can work around that.

  This sparked an interesting memory for me.  I was once working with a customer who was producing on-board software for a missile.  In my analysis of the code, I pointed out that they had a number of problems with storage leaks.  Imagine my surprise when the customers chief software engineer said "Of course it leaks".  He went on to point out that they had calculated the amount of memory the application would leak in the total possible flight time for the missile and then doubled that number.  They added this much additional memory to the hardware to "support" the leaks.  Since the missile will explode when it hits its target or at the end of its flight, the ultimate in garbage collection is performed without programmer intervention.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20180228-00/?p=98...

Comment by neutronicus 15 hours ago

Some of them, probably.

From the job postings, many of them seem to be physics simulations of various kinds where (in my experience) memory is allocated on the heap without a second thought. Well, there are second thoughts, but those second thoughts are about performance.

Comment by debo_ 11 hours ago

C++ requires defensive programming, so I guess it fits that defense requires C++ programming.

Comment by pornel 13 hours ago

Cloudflare is all in on Rust, it's used everywhere by default, and C++ leftovers are being actively torn down.

Comment by nchie 3 hours ago

Going all in on Rust doesn't have to mean you'll rewrite everyone's firmware drivers in Rust, nor does it mean rewriting everyone's OS in Rust or rewriting the platform on which Rust is compiling.

Comment by pjmlp 4 hours ago

So they will remove LLVM from rustc and throw away V8?

Comment by m00dy 4 hours ago

It's just a matter of time.

Comment by pjmlp 4 hours ago

Yeah, sure. Cranelift isn't making that much progress, and Google is in no hurry to RIIR V8.

Comment by m00dy 3 hours ago

As far as I know, someone outside Google rewrote the TypeScript compiler in a week in Rust, and according to the benchmarks, it’s better than the Go version. The same thing will happen here. There’s no time to wait for Google. Someone else will do it.

Comment by pjmlp 3 hours ago

Yes, and the TypeScript team said, thanks but no we not taking it.

Comment by m00dy 7 hours ago

Rust is eating C/C++.

Comment by pjmlp 4 hours ago

While depending on a compiler framework written in C++, the irony.

Comment by pipe01 49 minutes ago

Not if you use Cranelift

Comment by m00dy 4 hours ago

We’re at a point where you can build anything in any language, and Rust is eating everything because its strict guarantees help cover the weaknesses of AI-assisted development.

Comment by pjmlp 4 hours ago

One less reason to care about Rust then, I rather go straight to machine code.

> Frame was created over the past month largely via Claude Code. The Assembly code in all its glory can be found on GitHub.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Frame-X11-Server-Assembly

The eating everything part is only the usual hype cycle as folks update their CVs, in this fashion driven industry.

Except this time around AI makes language knowledge meaningless, we can vibe code anything into any language.

Comment by m00dy 3 hours ago

Assembly, C, and C++ all fall into the unsafe category. They don’t offer the same memory-safety and concurrency checks Rust does when AI-generated code gets things wrong. Sorry, but this industry is more competitive than ever, and it’s starting to look like there’s no room for amateurs.

Comment by pjmlp 3 hours ago

You mean when AI generates Rust code full of unsafe code blocks and calls it a day, yeah.

Comment by m00dy 3 hours ago

No, I mean Rust is the final nail in the coffin for C/C++ developers. In Darwinian terms, they’re a species that’s already hit its evolutionary peak and is now heading toward extinction.

Comment by pjmlp 3 hours ago

Looking forward to that LLVM rewrite into Rust then, to save Rust from being dragged into extinction.

Naturally everyone around the globe that contributes to LLVM will gladly contribute the rewritten version as well.

Comment by IshKebab 14 hours ago

Yes mine is, because they have a huge amount of C++ already and none of it is publicly accessible so security isn't a concern. (Obviously there are many other reasons to prefer Rust, but that is a big one.)

Comment by icase 15 hours ago

[flagged]

Comment by thomashabets2 15 hours ago

Are you just being snarky, or do you have something more specific to say about something that's choosing C?

Considering that it's been 54 years, and we've yet to find any human being, any at all[1], who can write C without UB, I'd say that writing C in 2026 when there's any other option is basically misconduct and a good case could be made that if the code touches money in any way, then it could be a SOX violation too.

Writing C today is like still writing Cobol. Yes, if you are adding a new type of savings account to your bank, and the rest is in Cobol, then sure write it in Cobol.

Some microcontroller projects may have an ecosystem in C that makes other options harder in practice, but it's still a worthy investment to not use C. There's a reason phone baseband firmwares are moving away from C.

[1] No, not even djb, who people like to bring up.

Comment by clifflocked 14 hours ago

> Considering that it's been 54 years, and we've yet to find any human being, any at all[1], who can write C without UB

Undefined behavior does not mean that a language is useless. C is quite nice to write as an abstraction over assembly, and I highly recommend writing C code and thinking about (and checking) what assembly it compiles into.

Also, it is possible to verify that the types of UB that you are referring to do not occur: see the seL4 project, which provides machine-checked proofs for an OS kernel that no execution can reach a state that is undefined by the language specification.

Comment by thomashabets2 14 hours ago

> Undefined behavior does not mean that a language is useless.

Never said it was useless. But it's pretty damning that literally nobody can write correct code in the language. And my point is that it's been enough time that it can't be seen as a skill issue.

> C is quite nice to write as an abstraction over assembly, and I highly recommend writing C code and thinking about (and checking) what assembly it compiles into.

Absolutely. I think in order to understand programming you need to be able to write C, and be able to read assembly.

C isn't "high level assembly", with the whole discussion about the spec talking about the abstract machine, but one does not need to be a C language lawyer to be a good programmer.

But to your point about checking the output: That goes for Rust too, and godbolt.org supports Rust too, for this workflow.

So I'm not saying C is useless. But I am saying that if someone were to decide to write their greenfield project in C, then if it plans to have actual users (as opposed to a fun project), then it's basically misconduct.

Cf. Steve Gibson writes his software in assembly, still. Because he enjoys it, and his enjoyment is the primary user. I respect that. But I would NEVER hire someone to write whole applications like that in assembly. Or C.

Comment by dnautics 15 hours ago

> who can write C without UB

Sel4?

Comment by 3eb7988a1663 10 hours ago

NASA, They Write the Right Stuff. Essentially: go very slowly and carefully. Not at all like the typical cowboy coding in your typical software.

PDF: https://www.eng.auburn.edu/~kchang/comp6710/readings/They%20...

Comment by anonymous908213 14 hours ago

> Are you just being snarky,

They aren't being snarky, they're stating a fact. Rust, rounding to the nearest percent, does not exist. It's a trendy language among the Silicon Valley types that HN draws, but 99.9% of the world runs on C/++, OSes written in C/++, and language VMs implemented in C/++. Maybe some day it will change, but hanging around here too much will give you a very skewed idea of how widely adopted it is.

Comment by thomashabets2 14 hours ago

Well, "grownups with important jobs write C" can be taken in two ways. Non-snarky, sure. There are MANY people who write C professionally.

Not as many as there are Python, Java, JS, or C++ programmers. Depending on the survey, C seems to be neck and neck with PHP.

I read the comment the other way, though. The way that says that those other more popular languages are not serious, and NOT for grownups with important jobs.

Edit: actually, Jetbrains 2025 survey has C neck and neck with Rust: https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-data-playground/ . Both "below the fold" and less than 10% of Java.

Comment by anonymous908213 14 hours ago

Python, Java, and JS are all implemented in C/++. C++ is an extension of C. Taken strictly, sure, not everyone is literally writing C. But C powers everything. It is still the systems language of the world, that is the foundation of all of our systems, including both embedded and phone/PC OSes. Then there's a bit of COBOL and Fortran for mainframes, Ada for military hardware, and a whole notta Rust anywhere.

Think about what Rust software people actually use. Codex CLI, uv, ripgrep, and what else? That's three pieces of software, all development tools for development nerds. Normal people aren't engaging with any of this stuff. Your metaphorical grandma has never used software written with Rust in her life.

Comment by thomashabets2 14 hours ago

Cobol powers the world's money and international travel. Not sure how that matters.

> Think about what Rust software people actually use

More and more Chrome, Google, Android, Cloudflare, Prime Video, and phone basebands, parts of Linux kernel, and many other things.

Normal users literally use those all day every day.

Are they 100% Rust? Of course not (well, I don't actually know if some phone basebands are, by now. Naturally very closed source). But they're not 100% another-language either.

If C disappeared from the world, the world would stop, yes. Same with Cobol. Same with Java. Same with C++. Same with assembly.

If I were to guess (completely without basis for my guess) about the number of lines of code that normal users exercise in a normal day (counting each line just once), my bet would be on Java or JS.

Would the Java be able to run without the C code? No. But normal users would not be able to do anything if only C was left. And all banks would be gone.

And in any case C would not be able to do anything without transistors.

Comment by dwattttt 14 hours ago

Rust is in use in more places than you may expect. Does the hypothetical grandma use Windows' kernel? Android? Firefox? Chrome?

Comment by anonymous908213 14 hours ago

1% of code in some obscure module that's barely used being written in Rust does not give one claim to those things being written in Rust. Even Firefox is only 10% Rust despite the language being designed by Mozilla, and they abandoned their project to write a new browser engine in Rust.

Comment by aero_code 14 hours ago

It's not "some obscure module" that is written in Rust. Just some examples I know of:

- Chrome currently uses https://github.com/googlefonts/fontations to implement its font handling, and text is the main thing on most web pages.

- Windows' DirectWriteCore for font handling is also now written in Rust.

- Firefox's whole CSS engine and GPU 2D rendering engine are written in Rust.

Comment by thomashabets2 14 hours ago

What is your point?

I pointed to a jetbrains study, and then there's a stackoverflow survey[1] showing C neck and neck with PHP at 11th place among professional developers.

We all know there's lots of important C code out there. I don't see anyone going "RIIR!!!" in this thread.

But obviously yes, the 11th place language will have MANY programmers working on it. Not as many as JS by far. But many. In that survey Go is just after PHP. There are also many many Go programmers.

We are not yet at risk of running out of C programmers, like the Cobol situation. Nor do I want us to.[2]

But what point are you trying to make by so strongly defending C and the comment "grownups with important jobs write C"?

[1] https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2025/technology#most-popular... [2] relevant comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50187384

Comment by anonymous908213 13 hours ago

The point I am trying to make is that C is a production language and Rust is not a production language, so the original comment is pretty much correct if you take adults with jobs to mean writing software used in production. People use JS, your JS engine is written in C++, running in a browser written in C++, running on an OS written in C/++. Whatever higher-level language you use, it's powered by C/++. Your game engines are written in C/++. Your fucking car is written in C. It's not even an argument about what is better or what people should use or anything like that. It's just acknowledging reality. You're talking about how "writing new C in 2026 is misconduct" like it's a relic of a bygone era when in actuality the world around you is a world written entirely in C with, rounded to a whole percent, literally 0% of the software anyone uses being written in Rust.

Comment by dralley 8 hours ago

You have a point but it's just hyperbole in the other direction. Yes, Rust is only a small fraction of the code in use every day, but it has nonetheless achieved deep penetration into critical infrastructure.

Cloudflare's network routing code is predominantly Rust. Massive parts of AWS and Azure are Rust (including crown jewels like S3 and Lambda). Multiple car manufacturers have shipping Rust code in their production cars for years, albeit yes it's a slow process intoroducing it into regulated industries. Airbus and Boeing are putting up job openings for Rust development. As mentioned critical pieces of Windows and Android are now written in Rust. If you use Discord - that's Rust. If you use Amazon Prime Video or Disney+, that's Rust. I could go on.

When like 40% of internet traffic and 75% of end user devices are using Rust in some capacity, to say that it's "not production" is just ignorant, arrogant nonsense.

Comment by dwattttt 11 hours ago

> Rust is not a production language

Your argument was that the only Rust projects there are are little developer tools, so Rust isn't a production language. When pointed out there are large projects that every day users rely on that use Rust, and not just in corners of the codebase, code that's exercised by approximately all users, you insist it's still not production?

Comment by contact9879 12 hours ago

> Rust is not a production language because so much legacy code

You must not exist, because, rounded to a whole percent, literally 0% of the lives of people in the world are directly affected by you personally

Comment by anthk 11 hours ago

In less than a year tons of Chromium features will be Rust based.

Even big bases as FFMPEG will be ported to Rust, as the porters' repos already use Rust's cc to compile ASM code.

And of course Qemu will be almost a mandatory candidate for obvious reasons.

For instance, quick and dirty SGI Irix emulator:

https://github.com/techomancer/iris

Comment by thomashabets2 1 hour ago

Most things in the world are not made of zinc. But to therefore say that we live in a world without zinc in production is not a correct conclusion (https://youtu.be/jWpPrWHBHcQ).

> running in a browser written in C++

As other have pointed out, that browser would not render fonts without Rust. You use your browser without fonts? I mean, it's not impossible. Some people navigate the web using screen readers.

> running on an OS written in C/++

Except the parts that are written in Rust or other languages, sure.

So tautologically, the parts that are not written in other languages, are written in C and C++. That's technically correct, the best kind of correct.

> Whatever higher-level language you use, it's powered by C/++

"Powered by" in that it runs on an OS written in C, assembly, and C++, sure. Still not relevant. Languages tend to want to "self-host".

> Your game engines are written in C/++

Well, most gaming hours in the world are probably spent on games written in C#, Java, Kotlin, Swift, and Objective-C. And JS.

JetBrains 2025 study has 40% of game development as C#. C++ just 29%.

AAA games, sure. But it's understatement of the year to say that because AAA games are written in C++ that means it's the only production language.

> Your fucking car is written in C

I think you're stuck in the past. This is no longer a categorically true statement.

The world changes. It used to be a true statement that "americans don't even have passports". In 1989 only 3% had passports, and the world could mock that figure. Today it's 48% and rising.

Just like you should no longer say "americans don't even have passports", because while the percentage may not be a record, it's no longer true, you should stop saying other things when they are no longer true.

> literally 0% of the software anyone uses being written in Rust.

As I have others have repeatedly proved to you, this is literally (actual literally, not as a rhetorical device) false.

I guess you could live in a world with 0% Rust. Your car is old, your Linux kernel was compiled to exclude Rust parts (not sure this is possible. Haven't checked), and you don't run anything Chromium-based, or Firefox. And you don't own an Android phone.

But you saying (asserting without evidence) that it's only minor systems in these omnipresent systems that use Rust, then… uh… what's your point? In a car, if C controls fuel injection and Rust controls the power steering, does that "not count", and you'd still claim "literally 0%"?

But… like, if you have an iPhone instead, do you think it doesn't run anything Objective-C or Swift?

I think it's accurate enough to say that "Cloudflare runs on Rust".

You think you, and normal people, never use Cloudflare? Cloudflare hosts like a a quarter of web traffic.

A quarter of web traffic runs on Rust. In production. Right now.

> You're talking about how "writing new C in 2026 is misconduct" like it's a relic of a bygone era

Just like with Cobol, in an existing system it does have its place for extending existing code.

But that "new" is key.

> world around you is a world written entirely in C

Entirely? No. Nobody's saying there's no C code in existence. I don't know why you care to defend against that imagined claim.

> rounded to a whole percent, literally 0% of the software anyone uses being written in Rust.

Does it matter, if (say for example) your pacemaker or car ignition runs Rust?

Come back, zinc, come back.

Comment by scottyah 13 hours ago

I doubt it, Rust developers compete only with crossfit and vegans in the race to be noticed.

Comment by dwattttt 11 hours ago

You.. doubt that people use Firefox, Chrome, Windows, or Android? That it must be "attention" that's the reason those projects have Rust in them now?

Comment by anthk 11 hours ago

There's RustPython and far more compatible than IronPython back in the day. C++ is NOT an extension of C, they diverged a lot.

>Codex CLI, uv, ripgrep, and what else?

RustDesk, Servo/Firefox, tons of gtk4-rs on Gnome and extra tools, Librsvg, CosmicDE (Fedora Atomic with Cosmic can be slightly faster than vanilla Gnome Silverblue), Ruffle, Gopher64, ArtCraft (both the vibecodec cr*p and the AI powered magical multimedia IDE doing crazy stuff which is fine).

Oh, and Harper to sharp your English skills:

https://github.com/automattic/harper

IronCalc looks better than LO Calc performance wise:

https://github.com/ironcalc/ironCalc

Gnome might be a Rust domain tomorrow and nobody would bat an eye. Fedora/RH/IBM can rewrite the Anaconda installer in Rust in no time.

Comment by mahboi 13 hours ago

Grownups with important jobs use at least a few different languages

Comment by oddCopper65 15 hours ago

The enum-over-bool rule is the one I'd keep even solo, saved me a reversed flag in a cert validator once.

Comment by sebastianconcpt 15 hours ago

This is a sub-case of the general one that is narrowing the interpretation of things. A big infinite amount of things can be true or false, only one can be a Rust variant.

Comment by eviks 5 hours ago

> out of automatic formatting using #[rustfmt::skip], but only in the following situations:

> Manual alignment

Guess, another decade before Rust robots can do columns?

Comment by hitekker 11 hours ago

> Don’t use async / .await in Chromium.

That's pretty direct. IIRC, the Rust for Linux people also have that refrain informally

Comment by slaymaker1907 14 hours ago

I have a huge disagreement here. You should absolutely be using Arc and Rc for any references *that live outside of the call stack.*

Don't do weird crap with lifetimes to try and convince the compiler that what you're doing is ok, just throw Rc/Arc on it and be done with it.

The Rc/Arc advice also applies to C++ IMO, though you use different constructs, std::shared obviously, but there is a strong argument to be made for a std::shared_st or something which is single threaded.

It would not surprise me if this advice comes from experience with C++ where there is no Rc so reference counting is very expensive. Even so, you can greatly reduce the expense by passing things by ref where lifetimes are simple which is the vast majority of the time.

Comment by i2talics 14 hours ago

I think using refcounting can allow you to get lazy with your object graphs, throwing referencing to objects around everywhere and then losing the ability to conceptualize who owns what and who is responsible for who (so to speak). Sticking to a stricter ownership graph forces you to be more deliberate with how your types are designed and this can lead to better architecture in the long run.

Comment by mrbonner 11 hours ago

Agree. I think for the limited scopes such as in a mod/function, using Rust's borrow checker semantic makes sense as it is easier to fit in our mental model. If you have to pass those data structures around to the outside of your limited scopes, I would prefer Rc/ARc more. I also think the style guide has a catch all phrase there when it says "OK to use Rc/ARc depending on the complexity...". For me, having to pass a shared reference around is enough complexity to reason about.

Comment by wtetzner 13 hours ago

I find using lifetimes to be simpler and easier to follow than reference counting, unless you're in a situation where you actually need a shared lifetime.

Adding Rc/Arc is just another layer of indirection and noise that makes the code hard to read.

Comment by wocram 5 hours ago

There's something ironic with having project specific variants in a style guide.

Comment by eugenedonin25 2 hours ago

Very nice post

Comment by manlymuppet 9 hours ago

How useful would this be to simply feed to an LLM and say to follow strictly?

Comment by threethirtytwo 9 hours ago

Not useful at all. It uses up context. You need all the context you can get for the LLM read the code later for you later.

Comment by JimTheMan 9 hours ago

Could you just get a separate agent to do a pass over existing code and make conform? Like super linting.

Not a professional programmer, so it's a genuine question rather than a statement.

Comment by threethirtytwo 7 hours ago

Sure you can do that. But what’s the practical point if only your agent is reading it? Your agent doesn’t care about linting.

Comment by 0xmassi 1 hour ago

[flagged]

Comment by mmooss 13 hours ago

> Usage of lowercase alphabets in hex literals (0xab123cdef as opposed to 0xAB123CDEF): hex_literal_case = Lower

Anytime numbers and letters are mixed, it's more readable if the letters are lowercase. It's easier to read the variable heights - numbers are usually capital letter height, sometimes with descenders - and avoids confusing 0O, I1, even 8B and 5S (think of a degraded printed serial number, poor lighting, etc.). There's only l problem that persists.

Comment by IX-103 12 hours ago

OT, but it was interesting. Some old typewriters didn't have a separate 1 a lower case L key. They had keys for the other numbers, but you were expected to just type a lower case L for 1.

Comment by bibekadhikari 10 hours ago

[flagged]

Comment by chmmohibullahpa 3 hours ago

[dead]

Comment by younglunaman 14 hours ago

ctrl+c > ctrl+v > into my AGENTS.md for my next rust project /s

Comment by icase 15 hours ago

[flagged]

Comment by sebastianconcpt 15 hours ago

The good emotions come with the confidence in the engineering quality that it gives you as output (once you overcome the friction, which AI can help you big time to achieve).

Comment by xiaodai 12 hours ago

why is google using github, a Micro$oft product?

Comment by shaftway 12 hours ago

I 100% guarantee that this source of truth for this is either in google3 or git-on-borg and is being mirrored to GitHub for external use. There aren't a lot of public catch-all repos or public micro repos published by Google. Given that, GitHub is a reasonable choice.

Comment by holografix 14 hours ago

Things like this make me appreciate Gofmt so much

Comment by japgolly 8 hours ago

But there's a rustfmt already. Anyway, the style guide is larger in scope than just code formatting.

Comment by 13 hours ago

Comment by incrediblers 14 hours ago

Getters and setters is the one I'm most at disagreement with.

   // Mine
   let label = Label.text("Hello Wold");
   let label_text = label.get_text();

   // Theirs
   let label = Label.set_text("Hello Wold");
   let label_text = label.text();
A method is a way to accomplish a specific task. Emphasis on specific not generic. The getter task is to always return. The setter task is specific. So the method should be the setter - `text`, `color`, `fill`. In Rust the getter can't have same name, so prefix it. Not the other way around.

Comment by i2talics 14 hours ago

Their style is pervasive in Rust, such as in the standard library, so I would personally apply a when-in-rome philosophy. FWIW something like `.text("hello")` I would expect to see in a builder-pattern but not in a setter for an object that's already built.

That being said I don't particularly understand your conception of a method. They are both methods. The getter ought to have a shorter name since it is probably called more frequently and because it inherently has less of an impact -- this goes along with the principle that names that demand attention should be larger and easier to notice.

Comment by incrediblers 14 hours ago

My use case is a TUI framework (https://www.incredible.rs/). The setters configure elements in a chain-able manner. I grappled with the rust convention and decided to go the other way. Rational as mentioned.

But this made me think...

> "The getter ought to have a shorter name since it is probably called more frequently"

So i checked. Rough agent driven counts:

https://github.com/ronilan/incredible-flappy 407 setters and 183 getters.

https://github.com/ronilan/rusticon 546 setters and 5 getters

https://github.com/ronilan/shape-sorting 688 setters and 33 getters.

And in a code editor with a lot of ui configurations based on reusable elements 2865 setters and 206 getters.

In reactive apps on state handlers call on setters with state values. No getters involved...

Comment by afdbcreid 14 hours ago

That means those are probably builders and not setters. Do they change an existing object or a newly-constructed or to-be-constructed object?

Comment by incrediblers 13 hours ago

They are setters. They modify an element after instantiation. Mostly as part of the initial build, but then also in the event closure. Under the hood, a struct with interiorly mutable fields.

Comment by i2talics 8 hours ago

This sounds a lot like a builder but the line can be blurry. For a Rust stdlib example, the `process::Command` type is considered a builder even though it is not named "CommandBuilder", and the final operation is spawning a subprocess, not returning some other data.

Comment by incrediblers 6 hours ago

What I was saying is that I think a "flipped pattern" where anything that sets something sometime somewhere is the word and anything that reads is a get_* makes this fine distinction unnecessary... and that makes life easier... I came to Rust from JS where one can overload methods... I understand from other comments that the set_* convention may have arrived from C++... In any case, consistency I think beats specifics.

Comment by fwip 11 hours ago

Gotcha, so in your case, users of the library will set values much more often than read them (since the reading will be done by the TUI framework for display).

Comment by trimbo 14 hours ago

This style is aligned with protocol buffers, which is aligned with the style of protos in C++.

https://protobuf.dev/reference/rust/rust-generated/

Comment by epage 13 hours ago

I think which to use in general Rust code depends on the purpose of your type.

A builder type like `Command` will have unqualified setters and `get_` qualified getters.

For record-like-structs, I think unqualified getters becomes preferred and `set_` qualified setters.

Comment by 14 hours ago

Comment by 13 hours ago

Comment by Thanemate 15 hours ago

Not trying to rain on someone's parade but, the only reason why would care about style guides nowadays is to feed them to our model of choice and let it do what it's supposed to be doing.

So it's not like I am willing to read through this and think to myself "I cannot wait to pick up some new ways of doing things". I'm the general to my agentic army now.

I guess you would code manually every now and then for your own enjoyment but at that point do you care about style guides written for scale?

Comment by nimih 15 hours ago

I'm not sure I really agree with your main point (I think it's probably still important for LLM-generated code to be generally human-understandable, at least if you care about long-term maintainability), but setting that aside to answer this question:

> I guess you would code manually every now and then for your own enjoyment but at that point do you care about style guides written for scale?

I think they're still quite valuable in that case, for a couple reasons:

- When learning a new language (which happens much more frequently when writing code "for pleasure," as it were), "written for scale" guidelines still translate pretty well to "written for oneself" IME. At the very least, they tell you what to expect in code you read, and give you a reasonable starting point as you develop your own taste and stylistic preferences.

- I've noticed some open source projects beginning to institute anti-AI contribution guidelines, and such projects still benefit from codified style guides. Google obviously doesn't fall under this category themselves, but in other language ecosystems, their style guides tend to find use in OSS projects.

Comment by anonymous908213 15 hours ago

> I'm the general to my agentic army now.

What have you produced with your agentic army? Would you like to share with the class?

Comment by bigfishrunning 15 hours ago

my guess is a lot of heat, some water vapor....

Comment by solyin 14 hours ago

Why would they when the class is full of dropouts who, generously, have a 0 percent chance of going "hey, y'know what, that's actually kinda cool! I'm going to change my mind about LLMs being useless" and a 100% chance of going "ur project is total shit and you should feel bad".

Comment by nvme0n1p1 14 hours ago

The people you call "dropouts" have written 100% of the software that people actually use and actually keeps the real world running, so maybe you shouldn't write them off.

Comment by lioeters 9 hours ago

The "all in on LLM" hypesters are as obnoxious as the "all in on Rust" hipsters.

We get it, Rust is great, and LLMs too. But sometimes it's like listening to teenage philosophers who just discovered atheism, who go on and on to disparage all religions every chance they get. They're so full of themselves that they don't realize they're missing entire areas of understanding about the world and people.

The juvenile arrogance on display in many threads in recent years is second-hand embarrassing. Meanwhile the greybeards continue getting the job done, with or without LLMs, in Rust, C++ or even C.

Comment by solyin 6 hours ago

Class is full of dropouts != every single last member of the class is a dropout.

Comment by scottyah 13 hours ago

Unlike Linus, Jeff Dean, DHH, John Carmack, Guido van Rossum? I really want to know who you think writes "100% of the software that people actually use and actually keeps the real world running"

Comment by nvme0n1p1 12 hours ago

Have any of those people (excluding DHH) said anything even half as ridiculous as "I'm the general to my agentic army now"? Or are they adults using tools where they make sense and avoiding them where they don't?

If you think style guides don't matter anymore, I encourage you to submit patches to the people on your list whose credibility you're borrowing, and see if they agree. Tell Linus to delete https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-style.html because it doesn't matter because we have AI now. Or ask GvR if the current Python maintainers should deprecate https://peps.python.org/pep-0008/, since agents don't need it.

Comment by vor_ 10 hours ago

Linus doesn't even do much programming by his own admission. He's a release manager.

Comment by japgolly 8 hours ago

That being said there was a story about him debugging an issue recently with some pretty serious help from AI.

Comment by Mawr 12 hours ago

Hmm, one of those is not like the others...

Comment by smoe 15 hours ago

First paragraph: “includes guidance on API and implementation design”

It seems to me that if the intent is not just to produce code but also to operate it, having the different pieces behave in a similar, predictable way is kind of nice. Whether the software is written by AI or humans.

Comment by monocasa 15 hours ago

The point of style guides is to optimize for readability despite a cognitively diverse workforce coding in the same repos.

I would think they're probably even more meaningful in an agentic world.

Shitty generals can't review meaningfully review the work of their troops.

On top of that all, I just enjoy programming itself. It's less and less of the meat of a software job over time, but I was coding before I got paid for it, and I'll probably keep coding well after I can get paid for it.

Comment by mkagenius 15 hours ago

> Shitty generals can't review meaningfully review the work of their troops.

Except that reviewing has become just asking your agent what that piece of code does in english. Reading code has a bit of cognitive load, that we will probably drop it in coming years

Comment by u1hcw9nx 15 hours ago

Not trying to rain on someone's parade, but the only reason I would care about HN comments nowadays is to feed them to my model of choice and let it generate the contrarian hot takes it's supposed to be generating. So it's not like I am willing to read through this thread and think to myself "I cannot wait to pick up some new ways of complaining about documentation." I'm the Editor-in-Chief to my synthetic pundit army now.

I guess you would type out a comment manually every now and then for your own enjoyment, but at that point do you really care about comments at scale?

---

EDIT (above is a joke) It's very important that every time you find something that is of no use to you, you write a comment explaining that this link is of no interest to you, discouraging people from things you have no interest in. Monoculture for all!

Comment by yodsanklai 15 hours ago

This is what we do in my company, give the guidelines to the model. Unfortunately, the model isn't always following them and it's impossible to enforce them manually. There's too much code to review, the code is generally low quality, and is more often than not auto-approved by AI.

Unless you're working on your own project on which you have full control, or you have a strong authority figure in your company who cares about that, it's a lost battle.

It's sad for anyone who love their craft, but tbh I'm not even sure it matters anymore for most projects.

Comment by scottyah 13 hours ago

Either you can put it in a linter and automate/force it, or people/agents will take liberties. I feel like there's usually exceptions where a well-meaning guideline doesn't properly fit a specific scenario.

Comment by petersellers 15 hours ago

Are you saying that you don't ever look at the code once it's been generated?

Comment by bigstrat2003 14 hours ago

AI bros think you can never look at code and make good software. They're wrong, of course, but they refuse to listen and will probably never listen until the shoddy quality of their work becomes too great to paper over.

Comment by IX-103 12 hours ago

If you set up a really good AI code review pipeline then you can get pretty close. I've heard a couple of tech companies are targeting 80% of changes not needing human review and they'll probably scale up from there.

Comment by bigstrat2003 3 hours ago

If you aren't reviewing 100% of the code, you aren't doing engineering, you're producing slop.

Comment by gatlin 15 hours ago

Seems very much like your goal was to rain on a parade.