No more icons in every menu by default
Posted by riffraff 2 days ago
Comments
Comment by cosmic_cheese 13 hours ago
The lack of transfer I don't think is out of unwillingness from the old guard, but rather due to the greenhorns throwing everything that came before their time out without questioning the reasoning behind any of it (Chesterton’s Fence) and assuming that whatever they came up with was superior and better fit for the modern era ("those old principles can't possibly hold, we have touch screens now!").
It's also been made worse by UI design roles having been taken by those with backgrounds in unrelated design disciplines, as well as sites like Dribbble which reward pretty mockups over working products. This leads to overemphasis on the visual aspect of the UI and not enough on its functional and usability aspects.
Comment by linguae 11 hours ago
It wouldn’t surprise me if Apple’s UI/UX teams are staffed with people who have never heard of Don Norman, Bruce Tognazzini, Bill Atkinson, Andy Hertzfeld, Susan Kare, Larry Tesler, and other pioneering figures who contributed to Apple’s legendary 1980s and 1990s software.
It’s a lack of onboarding and knowledge transfer, combined with an Eternal September of thousands new CS grads being constantly produced annually, who are sadly not being taught enough history of computing at their universities.
My dream as a CS professor is to help rectify this, at least amongst my students.
Comment by montagg 11 hours ago
This isn’t even to knock either: UI artists are essential to making a UI understandable and enjoyable. But people think the skill sets are the same, and they aren’t.
Disclaimer: am a UX Designer.
Comment by groundzeros2015 10 hours ago
Comment by nkrisc 3 hours ago
Comment by bluefirebrand 9 hours ago
Comment by intrasight 7 minutes ago
Comment by sandworm101 19 minutes ago
Please tell your fellow designers to stop injecting their lifestyle into their UI/UX design. Even in the OP, a simple monday-sunday list of days, the designer has inserted their lifestyle. Friday is popcorn, Saturday is a party popper, and Sunday is for sleeping off the hangover. That might seem innocuous but is a tiny microaggression felt by all those who do not work 9-5 M-F jobs. Or those who have places to be on Sundays other than in bed. Better yet, just avoid all UI/UX designs that reflect a particular schedule or lifestyle.
Comment by pyinstallwoes 3 hours ago
Comment by publlus_enigma 10 hours ago
In decades past, books and journals served as the primary mechanism for capturing and transferring CS and Software Engineering knowledge. Older knowledge was curated and remained easily accessible.
When I studied CS and engineering in the early 2000s, I learned a lot about the history and evolution of the field simply by browsing old books on the shelves of the university library. Thousands of them. I read back to the 60s and 70s, and I felt it really helped me have a broader perspective and evolution of the field.
That same university library has now transitioned to mostly online materials. The physical collection has been drastically pruned based on what is currently relevant and in demand.
The online collections don't have the same historical depth. And websites and online repositories come and go - think of the vast troves of knowledge that once existed on Usenet that have been lost to obscurity.
I also think the joy of browsing through topics you didn't know existed as given way to search-driven retrieval.
In our efforts to use computers to document what we know about computers, we have lost all that was good about not using computers for information management.
Comment by smelendez 6 hours ago
But also, it’s hard to convey the full experience of actually using old software as a tool (or toy)—trying to maintain your company records in Lotus 1-2-3 or looking up something in Microsoft Encarta knowing that if you couldn’t answer your question you’d need to go to the library, or even trying to solve a puzzle in a game with no reference materials.
I’m sure this is true of other technology: You can learn to ride a horse or read about how telephones and telegrams worked, but can you really capture the experience of riding from NYC to Philadelphia in 1840 or trying to convey an urgent business message the same way in 1920?
Comment by diskzero 6 hours ago
I don’t know if this means I am jaded, burnt out, overly cynical or what, but the thought of working at Apple, Google, Facebook or any other big tech company is anathema to me.
Steve Lemay worked with a bunch of us, including a very curmudgeonly Don Norman, but just look at what happened to Apple UX while he was there. Yes, he is now running the team and the small improvements may be a direct influence of his, but he sure was steam rolled by others the last twenty years.
Comment by olwmc 9 hours ago
Comment by bayindirh 15 minutes ago
I have been trying to kindly forward what I have learnt and experienced over these years to new people we start to work with, and I have been called a wrinkly boomer who doesn't understand modern times more than enough times.
Of course they have come full-circle on some of the things they were disagreeing, but sometimes people have to crash and burn before understanding something.
I have no hard feelings for these people, but kindness goes a long way even if you don't agree on everything.
Comment by Gravityloss 2 hours ago
Comment by lsh0 11 hours ago
Alan Kay (of Alan Kay fame)
Comment by theendisney 10 hours ago
Comment by mixmastamyk 8 hours ago
Are they being taught any of significance? In school I only remember a blurb about Newton here or a blurb about Pascal there. Briefest of mentions about Unix at the start of a C class.
All the rest I had to dig up myself, from the Mythical Man Month to Edwin Black's book. Believe it was the Joel on Software blog who got me interested in those type of books, never knew they existed in school.
Comment by pjmlp 1 hour ago
Comment by DonHopkins 8 hours ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8841428
Alan Kay also said this about his famous "Point of View is worth 80 IQ points" aphorism, which I think poignantly explains why React costs a net of 160 IQ points compared to Svelte:
>I have been keeping to "80" IQ points in the saying (thus avoiding inflation). However very few people have noticed there is no sign bit in the aphorism, and that it works just as well for "poor perspectives being worth negative 80 IQ points" (and I think we could claim inflation of stupidity in many bad directions these days ...).
Comment by linguae 8 hours ago
Comment by DonHopkins 6 hours ago
On 16 Oct 2026, Don Hopkins wrote to Owen Densmore, David Rosenthal, and Alan Kay:
Somebody took your filesystem-as-objects patent idea to the logical extreme!
https://danieltemkin.com/esolangs/folders
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50114342
-Don
On 16 Oct 2026, Alan Kay wrote:
There's a patent for this idea?
I fear there is some really old prior art for several parts of it.
Best cheers
Alan
On 16 Oct 2026, Don Hopkins wrote:
Yes, it's Sun's US 5,187,786: "Method and apparatus for implementing a class hierarchy of objects in a hierarchical file system." Owen and David filed it in 1991, it was granted in 1993, and it expired in 2011, so anyone can use it now, including people writing esolangs about folders.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5187786A/en
You're right about the prior art, and the idea came straight from your side of the family tree. Tom Stambaugh helped Owen work out how to adapt Smalltalk patterns to it, scribbling on napkins at a poolside table at the old Hyatt Palo Alto. In the patent, directories are classes and instances, PATH files encode the inheritance chain, and you send a message from the shell with something like "SEND aF001 methodA args".
It's the same trick Owen used for the NeWS object system in PostScript. Classes were dictionaries, and sending a message pushed the object's class chain onto the dictionary stack, so ordinary PostScript name lookup did the method lookup for free. NeWS 1.0 had single inheritance through a parent dictionary. TNT added ordered parent lists and multiple inheritance. The patent does the same thing with the shell path playing the dictionary stack: walk the directories, and the first match wins.
Owen's 1986 Monterey paper on object-oriented PostScript:
https://donhopkins.com/home/monterey86.pdf
The NeWS Book, chapter 6:
https://donhopkins.com/home/The_NeWS_Book_1989.pdf
I've been running with it in MOOLLM, which leans more toward Self than Smalltalk. A directory is an object, its files are slots, and a "parents:" list delegates to other directories, in order, first match wins. It's prototypes rather than classes, and the LLM does the message dispatch by reading the directory. The filesystem is the object graph, so it's inspectable, diffable, and versioned in git for free:
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/kernel/DIRECTO...
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/skills/file-sy...
The lineage from Smalltalk and Self through NeWS, TNT, the patent, HyperLook, and The Sims to MOOLLM is written up here:
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/object...
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/postsc...
Owen and David can correct my history, since they're on the thread.
-Don
On 16 Oct 2026, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Don
I should have said "prior art before Smalltalk" ...
Best cheers
Alan
On 16 Oct 2026, Don Hopkins wrote:
In a way, the patent is just pure prior art, plus perspective, which is worth a certain number of IQ points I've been told. ;)
Which pre-Smalltalk ancestors were you thinking of? Sketchpad's masters and instances, Simula's classes, and Multics search rules walking a hierarchy of directories all seem like pieces of it.
-Don
On 16 Oct 2026, Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Don
I have been keeping to "80" IQ points in the saying (thus avoiding inflation). However very few people have noticed there is no sign bit in the aphorism, and that it works just as well for "poor perspectives being worth negative 80 IQ points" (and I think we could claim inflation of stupidity in many bad directions these days ...).
I don't like to claim priority for any ideas (including my own). Bob Barton liked a great saying of Goethe's: "We should all share in the excitement of Discovery without vain attempts to claim Priority" and I imprinted on that in grad school.
So, without claiming priority, I would point to Engelbart's NLS for unifying the structure of the file system with the basic hierarchical structuring of their content (and this included how code was represented, written, and read). A few years later I used a different kind of unification in the FLEX machine that Ed Cheadle and I did in the mid-60s to have "every large thing" be an instantiable process, including things that were more "file-like".
This is just FYI, partly because of the above Goethe quote, partly because the FLEX project was done within the aerospace conglomerate LTV, and was proprietary. My thesis advisor Dave Evans had to go to considerable work to get permission for me to do my degree write ups on a tiny subset. The later Smalltalk was a "cold restart" on these ideas (and LTG was not a problem by then).
And -- for Smalltalk -- the notion to make "everything large and small" an object was a quick way to get going on the comparatively speedy Alto, and Dan Ingalls (and his Smalltalk group) were able to do most of the SW engineering to make Smalltalk act semantically as though everything was an object.
Best cheers
Alan
Comment by quacked 13 hours ago
(1) Clickable elements no longer visually signifying that they're clickable. Words aren't underlined or written in a special font, sometimes the profile avatar is the clickable link to the profile but sometimes the name is, etc.
(2) No more clean, compact directory trees. We used to have high-contrast compact UI design to look through nested ontologies. Now it's rounded-edges card-based, often without trace lines, and barely ever compact. RIP
Comment by cosmic_cheese 13 hours ago
Even plain old tables with sortable rearrangeable columns, a staple of all of the traditional desktop UI frameworks, are increasingly falling by the wayside in favor of mobile-style single-column lists with cells consisting of stacks of labels.
Comment by quacked 12 hours ago
Comment by bluefirebrand 9 hours ago
Hell your average developer probably doesn't either anymore
Comment by crooked-v 12 hours ago
Comment by quacked 12 hours ago
Comment by calvinmorrison 12 hours ago
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Comment by gleenn 11 hours ago
Comment by tensor 7 hours ago
Comment by adrianmonk 11 hours ago
Why did the label on my Fig Newtons get redesigned? It's not because it lacked in usability. It's because the company knows that customers respond to visual updates. If something looks the same year after year, lots of people will see it as old and tired. A redesign makes it feel modern and fresh. At least to enough people that it matters.
I had the same experience on a recent trip to The UPS Store. The color scheme was all different from the previous time I shipped a package. I commented to the clerk that they'd redecorated. He said they do it pretty often.
Software has a visual aspect to it, and the same forces are in effect. Part of a UI designer's job is to be on that treadmill. That's probably not what the job should be, but the people who pay their salary want it to be.
Comment by ChickeNES 9 hours ago
Comment by isolatedsystem 11 hours ago
Tantacrul is my favourite (and, actually, only) example of this. His work with MuseScore, with Audacity, his videos about them, and his takedowns of Sybellius etc. all opened my eyes to the world of designers who do things with hard-nosed analytical thinking, user studies, good principles, and make something useful. Even his little digressions about Paint3D and Ubuntu's Mobile OS are illustrative.
Comment by LastTrain 10 hours ago
Comment by outofpaper 12 hours ago
Comment by ahartmetz 12 hours ago
Comment by bobthepanda 9 hours ago
Comment by mx7zysuj4xew 7 hours ago
you mean "actually methodically studying users is boring and requires competence"
these people only care about making pretty pictures, they dont care about the actual effort to deliver a good product.
Comment by mx7zysuj4xew 8 hours ago
i remember the studies used to design windows 95
nothing modern ux amateurs do can compare to the oldschool HCI professionals
Comment by wmwragg 1 hour ago
Comment by PaulHoule 10 hours ago
It's no help at all that people expect Apple to be fashionable, like if you read a review of an "operating system" in Arstechnica you'd think it's all about little details on the scrollbar, not about filesystems and microkernels and namespaces and stuff.
Comment by ajam1507 6 hours ago
Comment by Mikhail_Edoshin 6 hours ago
Comment by DonHopkins 8 hours ago
Bad Dye Job:
Comment by paulmooreparks 4 hours ago
Comment by iamcalledrob 4 hours ago
It's funny (depressing) to me that there is now "web app" design language and a "native app" design language, and most new desktop apps are following the web because they are built in html and CSS.
Comment by jerf 8 hours ago
In their defense, it's not like good UI has ever dominated very many spaces. It is very hard to come up with a concept of good UI concepts from a natural meandering through the shattered landscape of UI paradigms anyone computer literate ends up subjected to. And then it's even harder to convince a manager that it's worth so much as a moment's thought about such things. Not impossible. But not easy.
Comment by burningChrome 13 hours ago
Accessibility has been left in the dustbin as well. You go to all these sites extolling these beautiful, innovative sites and they're completely useless with a keyboard or screen reader.
Comment by bunderbunder 12 hours ago
Also, holy hell, this obsession with huge swathes of negative space is a disaster for anyone who needs to zoom the page for readability. I'm here to see content, not an homage to the backrooms.
Comment by wolpoli 3 hours ago
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Comment by lelanthran 7 hours ago
Not just limited to UI decisions; many tech decisions were made the same way. I've said more than once, WRT to npm, that there were no adults in the room when they "designed" it, and npm is not the only tech stack that I look at and have the same thought.
Comment by bunderbunder 12 hours ago
The move toward fullstack developers, too. When everybody is a jack of all trades, nobody is a master of anything. Least of all UI design, which isn't worth thinking too much about because it's the least likely potential subject of pushback during code review.
Comment by mpyne 12 hours ago
Windows 95 significantly overhauled the desktop GUI metaphor, in a way that is still the skeletal structure of desktops today.
Its U/I design since Windows 3.11 came about because of agile, not in spite of it. https://socket3.wordpress.com/2018/02/03/designing-windows-9...
> We recognized that we needed much more opportunity to create a design, try it out with users (perhaps comparing it to other designs), make changes, and gather more user feedback. Our desire to abandon the waterfall model and opt for iterative design fortunately followed similar efforts in other areas of the company, so we had concrete examples of its benefits and feasibility.
You're right that you can't go start to finish on a design in a single 2-week sprint. But that's why you have a repeating series of sprints, you're not supposed to go from start to finish in a single sprint.
The Windows 95 team always had a shippable OS to demo internally to devs, QA, beta testers and users invited by the UX designers for usability testing. Just because you demo something to the product owner does not require that you then release the result immediately to end users. Decouple development from deployment and from release and you'll find agile methods can work just fine.
Comment by bunderbunder 12 hours ago
Comment by pjmlp 1 hour ago
Comment by AlexandrB 11 hours ago
Comment by mpyne 10 hours ago
Agile manifesto coined a term for things that already existed. It didn’t create it from scratch, nor did it claim to. But W95 did employ methods we would call agile methods today.
Comment by bunderbunder 10 hours ago
That’s not the part I intended to criticize; it was the modern tendency to discard iterative design and instead just treat sprints a series of immutable milestones with fixed deadlines, except the scope is fixed in a just-in-time manner. But it’s on me for not stating that more clearly.
Comment by cosmic_cheese 12 hours ago
This goes against the pattern that's most often observed in the past decade of every product hand-rolling its UI from scratch, though.
Comment by LtWorf 11 hours ago
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Comment by nntwozz 9 hours ago
We came from CLI with white text on black. Now dark mode is all the rage for the last couple of years.
I know OLED and all but interfaces feel just like fashion now, to hell with affordances and improving how things actually work let's just make things pretty for that micro dopamine drip and change it up just for the sake of it because jazz hands looks new makes $$
Comment by socalgal2 9 hours ago
Further, it's arguably become worse with touch screens in cars where, while you're driving, you get to discover a designer has moved a widget somewhere else and now your distracted. Self driving cars might solve that but even just walking around using your phone, every UI change is another distraction that might have consequences.
Comment by Pxtl 1 hour ago
Comment by PaulHoule 10 hours ago
Around the time Facebook figured out what it's business model was platforms suppressed virality and people got used to the idea that you have to pay for traffic. You'd think that people would think "I'm paying $40 to acquire a customer, losing that customer to bad UI comes right out of my shareholder's pocketbook..." and somebody probably does, but a lot of people don't. Like zero interest rates and some people are just made of money and some people in business are lazy and, if their business is profitable, won't pursue cost reductions unless competition makes it life or death. Or something.
So I am appalled at so much bad software marketing that makes me think "is there anyone left who's had to tune up a marketing funnel?"
Like you see 200+ bug reports on Adobe's tracker about how Acrobat displays a total of 8 distracting UI elements to promote AI summaries the instant you open a document. And you can't clear them. And that's enough to make people see red.
But if you actually click on one of these stupid links you see a series of ads for things that are not AI features and that they don't make a serious effort to explain or sell. Then finally there's an ad for Acrobat Pro which maybe has the AI Summary but do I want to find out? I heard somebody somewhere did manage to try the AI Summary and of course it didn't work.
Like I could be annoyed by rapacious behavior but at least understand that people are motivated to make money for their shareholders. But to annoy everybody when they have Adobe CC subscriptions to lose and no clear path to convert? Where's the profit in that?
And that's totally ordinary. Like Meta solved so many tough problems to create the Meta Quest 3 and supposedly they are leaders in social software but they get the easy things wrong: they keep changing the interface that I'd use to "friend" people in games and make the process so terrible (at least the spammers who try to follow me on Instagram stole pictures of blonde women but nobody has a profile pic or the slightest bit of information to help decide "why would you follow me?") Supposedly Zuck wants to succeed at VR so bad... or is it just "we're #1 why try harder?"
Comment by WillAdams 1 hour ago
Comment by tshaddox 11 hours ago
Aesthetics aside, some of the specific guidance from the past is simply not as crucial as it used to be when most users were very new to smartphones or personal computers.
Comment by DoneWithAllThat 13 hours ago
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Comment by hn_throwaway_99 12 hours ago
Not sure about that, given that John Gruber specifically lays the blame for a slew of recent shitty Apple design decisions on Alan Dye (cough liquid glass cough), and also the reversal of these shitty design decisions on changes made when Dye jumped ship for Meta. Gruber also says the Apple design team is much happier after Dye's departure.
Dye must be over 50, so I don't count him as a "younger replacement".
Comment by publlus_enigma 10 hours ago
Comment by uejeidud 9 hours ago
Comment by kevin_thibedeau 10 hours ago
Apple knew this was bad 20 years ago. They just don't bother to read their own documentation:
Apple Human Interface Guidelines (2008) [1] p. 170:
> If you do include icons in your menus, include them only for menu items for which they add significant value; don’t include them for every menu item. A menu that includes too many icons (or poorly designed ones) can appear cluttered and be hard to read.
Comment by trash_cat 15 minutes ago
Comment by paxy 13 hours ago
Looking at all their design missteps and corrections in recent releases my only takeaway is that they are making it up as they go along just like the rest of us.
Comment by bunderbunder 13 hours ago
But that was in a different millennium.
Comment by chihuahua 11 hours ago
Exactly. There may have been a reason for the single menu bar back in 1984 when the Mac had a 9-inch screen. But it doesn't work very well on my 43-inch screen where the menu bar may be a few feet away from a small window in the lower right hand corner.
Comment by Someone 2 hours ago
That isn’t obvious. With a mouse/trackpad with a good acceleration curve, chances are you can move faster to that menu at the top than to a menu a few cm away because you don’t have to decelerate when approaching the menu bar at the top of the screen.
Comment by epihelix 16 minutes ago
Follow Apple's logic, reductio ad absurdum, and you'd have to put every single GUI element in the corners of the screen, because how else could you manage to quickly select them with a mouse? That OK button in the dialogue? Top right corner of the screen. Cancel? Top left. Quick, easy, and nobody could ever press the wrong button. It'll make it faster!
Comment by bluGill 10 minutes ago
Comment by boonzeet 1 hour ago
Also, these menus are very consistent in appearance, functionality, shortcuts, etc; moreso than my experience with Windows applications.
Comment by astafrig 8 hours ago
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Comment by WillAdams 12 hours ago
https://milos.fyi/blog/fitts-law-why-the-menu-bar-is-at-the-...
Comment by efortis 10 hours ago
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~bam/uicourse/05440inter2019/Bill-Atk...
Comment by DonHopkins 8 hours ago
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~bam/uicourse/05440inter2019/Bill-Atk...
At 1:02:26, a student asked Bill Atkinson what was his biggest joy when making Macintosh, and he replied:
Bill> I was pretty excited when I moved the menus to the top of the screen, and suddenly it just clicked. Like, ok, we have the full width, the full height, there is this kinesthetic reaching over for this place. The pull down menus moving to the top of the screen, I though, yeah, this is doing to work!
Then at 1:03:10, a student asked:
Student> I have a question about HyperCard. What was the impetus for that [Bill smiled and chuckled], and like, how did, or what you build the um, motivation to like do that, because it was a kind of odd thing at the time...
[Bill beams and reaches off screen to find some papers]
Bill> How many of you guys have done a psychedellic?
[Class laughs, Bill grins] [Brad: no hands!]
Bill> In 1985 I swallowed a teenie fleck of gelatin containing a medium dose of LSD, and I spent most of the night sitting on a concrete workbench outside my home in Los Gatos, California. I gazed up at a hundred billion galaxies, each with a hundred billion stars, and each star a giant thermonuclear fusion reaction as powerful as our sun.
And for the first time in my life I knew deep down inside that we're not alone. I knew that life on Planet Earth is not the only pocket of consciousness in the universe, and likely not the most advanced, but we still have a role to play in the unfolding drama of creation.
It seemed to me that the universe is in a process of coming alive. Consciousness is blossoming and propogating to colonize the universe. And life on Earth is one of many bright spots in the cosmic birth of consciousness.
But the stars are separated by enormous distances of darkness and vacuum, which may hinder communication between them. I lowered my gaze and saw the street lamps below, glowing brightly, each casting a pool of light, but surrounded by darkness before the next lamp. As above, so below.
The street lamps reminded me of bodies of knowledge, gems of discovery and understanding, but separated from each other by distance, and different languages.
Poets, artists, musicians, physicists, chemists, biologists, mathemetitions, and economists, all have separate pools of knowledge that are hindered from sharing and finding the deeper connections.
My vision distorted by thick eyeglasses, I witnessed the curvature of the Earth's horizon, and I felt the pull of gravity towards its center, such that every one of us is standing at the very apex.
Each of us stands at the top of planet Earth, and each of us is a leader or captain of the Blue Marble team.
How could I help? By focusing on the weak link. If I were captain of a soccer team, I'd look for the weak link, and work on it. If the goalie was letting too many through, I would spend extra practice time with him, and the whole team would prosper.
It occurred to me that the weak link for the Blue Marble team is wisdom. Humanity has achieved sufficient technological power to change the course of life and the entire global ecosystem. But we seem to lack the perspective to choose wisely between alternative futures.
But I was young, without much life experience or wisdom myself. Knowledge it seemed to me consists of the "how" connections between pieces of information. The cause and effect relationships. How does this action bring about that result?
Science is a systematic attempt to discover the "how" connections. Wisdom, it seemed to me, was a step further removed. The bigger perspective of the "why" connections between pieces of knowledge. Why, for reasons ethical and aesthetic, should we choose one future over another.
i thought that if we could encourage sharing of ideas, between different areas of knowledge, perhaps more of the bigger picture would emerge, and eventually, more wisdom might develop. Sort of a trickle-up theory of information, leading to knowledge, leading to wisdom.
This was the underlying inspiration for HyperCard: a multimedia authoring environment that empowered non-programmers to share ideas, using new interactive media called HyperCard Stacks.
Each card in a HyperCard stack included graphics, text, interactive buttons, and links that took you to another card or stack. Built-in painting tools, drag-and-drop authoring with a library of pre-fab buttons and fields, and simple event based scripting, made HyperCard flexible and easy to use.
It took a lot of hard work and a dedicated team to complete this mission. Apple shipped HyperCard in August, 1987, and included it free with every Mac, so any user could create and share HyperCard stacks.
Many creative people expressed their ideas and passions, and several million interactive HyperCard stacks were created.
HyperCard was a precursor to the first web browser, except chained to a hard drive before the World Wide Web. Six years later, Mosaic was introduced, influenced by some of the ideas in HyperCard, and indirectly by an inspiring LSD experience.
[Class laughs]
So that's, honest, that's where the idea for HyperCard came from. And uh, and I, I'm not, like, advocating that every software designer should go out and take LSD, but it worked for me.
----
That was a tough act to follow, but the next week I gave a presentation about pie menus and Fitts' Law to Brad's UI class on February 11, 2019:
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~bam/uicourse/05440inter2019/Don-Hopk...
At 5:20 I mentioned Wiseman's 1969 PIXIE paper, the earliest known implementation of radial menus that ran on a PDP-7 with a 340 vector graphics display and light pen. Since then I've unearthed the paper, two films, and 128 pages of PDP-7 assembly language source code written by Heinz Lemke, which I've since reincarneted with a PDP-7 emulator:
PIXIE SIMELEC (1972) on PDP-7 and 340 Display emulator:
https://hyperties.org/cabinet/symelec/
Flight of the PIXIE - Yuja Wang:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrqR9XssJI
PIXIE and FORTH on PDP-7 Cabinet Emulator with Type 340 Vector Graphics Display:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo8kdY-5i6c
As an homage to Bill's HyperCard story, at 37:11 I trolled Brad and his recently-shocked students by asking the class:
Don> One thing I wanted to ask the class: Have any of you ever used ...[dramatic pregnant pause]... HyperCard?
Then I told my own story of how in 1987 HyperCard blew my mind and changed my world.
More on the "Mile High Menu Bar":
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44125835
Certain designers may have hated Nielsen, but their users hated them, and they have more users hating them than Nielsen has designers hating him, and users matter much more than designers, so I think he came out way ahead.
Bruce Tognazzini is the OG GUI Guru of 80's user interface design!
https://asktog.com/atc/about-bruce-tognazzini/
Tog not just invented and implemented, but also deeply rationalized and documented a lot of great user interface techniques, like the "mile high menu bar", which partially exploits Fitts' Law (in the "up" direction), but made more sense on the original single small Mac screens. (While pie menus more fully exploit Fitts' law (in "all" directions") and they work great on large screens, giving you even more "leverage".)
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/27/designing-for-peop...
>When the Macintosh was new, Bruce “Tog” Tognazzini wrote a column in Apple’s developer magazine on UI. In his column, people wrote in with lots of interesting UI design problems, which he discussed. These columns continue to this day on his web site. They’ve also been collected and embellished in a couple of great books, like Tog on Software Design, which is a lot of fun and a great introduction to UI design. (Tog on Interface was even better, but it’s out of print.)
>Tog invented the concept of the mile high menu bar to explain why the menu bar on the Macintosh, which is always glued to the top of the physical screen, is so much easier to use than menu bars on Windows, which appear inside each application window. When you want to point to the File menu on Windows, you have a target about half an inch wide and a quarter of an inch high to acquire. You must move and position the mouse fairly precisely in both the vertical and the horizontal dimensions.
>But on a Macintosh, you can slam the mouse up to the top of the screen, without regard to how high you slam it, and it will stop at the physical edge of the screen – the correct vertical position for using the menu. So, effectively, you have a target that is still half an inch wide, but a mile high. Now you only need to worry about positioning the cursor horizontally, not vertically, so the task of clicking on a menu item is that much easier.
>Based on this principle, Tog has a pop quiz: what are the five spots on the screen that are easiest to acquire (point to) with the mouse? The answer: all four corners of the screen (where you can literally slam the mouse over there in one fell swoop without any pointing at all), plus, the current position of the mouse, because it’s already there.
>The principle of the mile-high menu bar is fairly well known, but it must not be entirely obvious, because the Windows 95 team missed the point completely with the Start push button, sitting almost in the bottom left corner of the screen, but not exactly. In fact, it’s about 2 pixels away from the bottom and 2 pixels from the left of the screen. So, for the sake of a couple of pixels, Microsoft literally “snatches defeat from the jaws of victory”, Tog writes, and makes it that much harder to acquire the start button. It could have been a mile square, absolutely trivial to hit with the mouse. For the sake of something, I don’t know what, it’s not. God help us.
Another great technique he documented in the original Apple Human Interface Guidelines was the "drag delay" of popping up "pull right" submenus, to mitigate a problem that linear menus have, but pie menus don't. People keep forgetting and re-inventing it in sometimes better, sometimes worse ways, but he invented and implemented it for the original Mac, then most importantly documented it in the first edition of the Apple's 1987 Human Interface Guidelines, and the Mac UI still supports it. It's the kind of thing nobody notices if it works well, that's invisibly built into the toolkit, that nobody appreciates how much thought and nuance went into it, that deserves a lot of user testing and iteration to get right. (Or you could just use pie menus and not have that problem! ;)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39210672
[...]
Comment by WillAdams 1 hour ago
One of the most effective menu implementations ever for me was Altsys Virtuoso on NeXTstep's right-click (to pop-up the main menu at the mouse cursor), drag-down to Modify, then drag right to "Punch" or "Union" (whichever was the top command) --- it was a command I did a lot and it was almost gestural, kind of lke a well-done pie menu.
FWIW, the current Windows Start menu at lower-left, while not drawn to the corner now allows one to click the corner to open it, lower-right is "Show Desktop" and upper right closes the current maximized window --- only upper left is at the mercy of whatever app is currently running.
Comment by dnlosx 10 hours ago
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Comment by kibwen 12 hours ago
Comment by LtWorf 11 hours ago
I remember wasting a couple of hours trying to find where a certain setting had gone.
Of course the setting in question was literally the most important one, and of course it was hidden at the bottom of the page, outside of my non-designer-too-small-screen, after things like picking which colour and which emoji you wanted to use.
Comment by andai 12 hours ago
"Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that are no smarter than you. And you can change it. And you can change it. You can influence it. You can build your own things that other people can use." —Steve Jobs
Full clip slightly longer, worth watching.
Comment by youniverse 13 hours ago
Easier said than done so it's not surprising they have atrophied in their former genius but im curious.
Comment by diskzero 6 hours ago
Comment by happytoexplain 13 hours ago
If somebody always gets everything right in your opinion, you should be suspicious of your own values, not of the people who don't achieve constant perfection.
Comment by bitpush 13 hours ago
Large phones were a bad idea because you cant use it with one finger, until iPhone Pro Maxes came out.
Installing apps from the internet is scary because viruses, yet Macs let you do that no questions asked.
Ads are bad and dangerous, until it shows up on Apple Maps.
Apple is just a simple company, existing to make as much money as possible. They make beautiful devices though - but no reason to put them on a pedestal.
Comment by OnlineTux 11 hours ago
Even before Gatekeeper, macOS/OSX File Quarantine prompted you when you went to open a .dmg or .zip you downloaded. These days anything not singed by an Apple Developer certificate refuses to open unless you remove the file attribute.
> Apple is just a simple company, existing to make as much money as possible. They make beautiful devices though - but no reason to put them on a pedestal.
Apple certainly exists to make money, but I don't think they exist solely to do that. They have long had a culture of enabling their users to do things that were previously the purview of big business or specialised fields. They don't sell you just hardware, they give you a whole office suite, audio production tools, development tools etc. all on top of high quality hardware.
With a MacBook and iPhone you can be a filmmaker, take and edit professional-quality photographs, record and produce your own music out of the box.
Maybe they used to be better at it than they are today, but Apple tends to spend more time putting their customers first than their competitors do.
Comment by bitpush 9 hours ago
Adobe happened to be a shitty company but "enabling their users to do things that were previously purview of big business" isn't unique to Apple at all.
Infact, Apple is the biggest of the biggest companies of them all. Bigger than "professional" companies like Canon, Nikon, RED etc.
Apples advantage is stuff just works, which is more harder than it seems.
Comment by bunderbunder 13 hours ago
The individual at Apple who decided to try and keep phones small, for example is probably not the person who decided to make them big. I feel confident saying this because the person who was supposedly the driving force behind keeping them small died in 2011, and they didn't start releasing phones that are too large for comfortable one-handed use until 2014.
Comment by cromka 11 hours ago
It's not perfect here but having an ergonomic design and replacing it with a substantially worse one is rather unheard of in this world.
Comment by JumpCrisscross 11 hours ago
Hypocrisy would require commending Apple for icons everywhere and then celebrating their removal. That is not what happened. If anything has the homogeneity of hypocrisy, it’s this attitude that any commendation must be fanboying (while ignoring said commenters’ past criticism).
Comment by readthenotes1 13 hours ago
The iPhone 4 was such a letdown...
Comment by abletonlive 10 hours ago
Your assumptions only work until they don't. It's not like we live in a static situation. What didn't work yesterday might work today
Comment by amelius 12 hours ago
Best known from The Bible, Steve Jobs, Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler.
Comment by glimshe 13 hours ago
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Comment by angiolillo 12 hours ago
That doesn't match my experience. Personally I've found Apple fans (not just Gruber and Nielsen but regular Apple users) to be the most vocally critical of their design missteps.
Comment by kergonath 11 hours ago
You don’t have to make it up, it was only one year ago. All their blog posts are still visible.
Comment by netsharc 13 hours ago
> They designed it, shipped it, lived with it for a year, then publicly changed their guidance on it. To me, that’s a lot more persuasive than simply saying, “Apple doesn’t do this.”
> Choosing not to do something you’ve never done is one thing.
> Choosing not to do something you’ve done is experience.
A more persuasive sales pitch for me to consider Apple products would be if the company had judgement not to ship such a hot mess of a sloppy product in the first place...
Comment by epihelix 12 minutes ago
> > Choosing not to do something you’ve never done is one thing.
> > Choosing not to do something you’ve done is experience.
Gods, this sounds so LLM :(
Comment by happytoexplain 13 hours ago
MS would include superfluous icons because they observe it in other software and can't think for themselves, or they would omit superfluous icons because it never occurred to them in the first place.
Everything Apple does is carefully considered, good and bad.
I take the latter every time, because I understand how bad things are in software. I know it's unrealistic to be as choosy as I want to be.
Comment by Wowfunhappy 13 hours ago
Couldn't Apple have just, like, talked to the people who originally wrote the guidelines? Why do they need to re-invent the wheel? Will Apple forget again in another 15 years and need to re-run the experiment, taking us all along as test subjects?
Comment by OnlineTux 11 hours ago
Decisions should be revisited when it makes sense to do so.
Comment by troupo 2 hours ago
Comment by stonogo 6 hours ago
Comment by socalgal2 9 hours ago
No evidence this is true. It's basically PR / urban legend. It's not like the people at Apple are magic angels. They're the same people that worked at Meta or Google or MS last year or the year before that
Comment by GMoromisato 13 hours ago
Comment by chihuahua 11 hours ago
Or is that how you meant it?
Comment by isolatedsystem 10 hours ago
It was Microsoft who had the courage (and, admittedly, need) to come up with a bold new design language. They said, you know what, most people are digital natives these days, let's not infantalise them with fake paper notepads and fake leather textures for their digital calendar. Instead, let's make text itself the highlight, the star, and strip out all the rest.
They had a User Story thingy where their ideal users were busy people wanting to exist in the real world. MS wanted that the ideal user takes the phone out of his pocket, glances at it and instantly recives the information he seeks, and quickly puts it back in his pocket to move on with his life.
Hence Live Tiles. Hence the first widgets. Hence their lovely and ill-fated People app where you could go to one place and handle your Facebook feed and your LinkedIn feed etc. Hence the discarding of endless unicorn rainbow vomit of icons. Nah. Here's a simple text interface in black background for AMOLED battery life. The phone is not an extension of personality. It is a tool. Use it. Put it away.
Lumia phones ran amazingly well on nothing specs because they didn't try to be too complicated with graphical stuff. Battery life was always god-tier. And, though I've never been able to confirm it, around the time of Lumia 710, the MS touch keyboard actually let you type letters in the wrong order and would correct them for you. For example: "atcually". I remember at that time that Android wouldn't. It would only handle near-misses: "axtually".
I fucking loved Windows Phone. Rest in peace.
Comment by sirwhinesalot 1 minute ago
Windows 8 Metro, on the other hand, was almost universally hated and with very good reason. And Apple has been doing the same exact mistake for awhile, slowly porting designs meant for a phone (and far worse designs than Metro at that, iOS 7 was terrible as was everything since) to laptops/desktops.
Comment by publlus_enigma 10 hours ago
However they lost it when they tried to port that same design to Windows 8, resulting in an unpleasant collision of multiple inconsistent design paradigms.
Comment by readthenotes1 13 hours ago
It would have been a very easy thing to test the people outside there bubble.
Comment by sssilver 13 hours ago
When I read a sentence like this, I have to remind myself that this is Apple products we're talking about.
What other company do you feel surpasses Apple in terms of "judgement not to ship such a hot mess of a sloppy product in the first place"?
Is there any consumer electronics company today that ships products that are in any way less of a slop than Apple?
Comment by ludwigschubert 12 hours ago
Alan Dye really did a number on that company and set back UI design by one or two decades, favoring graphic design over human interface design.
Comment by Andrew_nenakhov 11 hours ago
One of the worst trends in icons is this insatiable desire to put different icons into uniform shapes.
For example, this trend resulted in tragic replacement of beautiful varied and distinct Android icons that were introduced in Android 5 to the uglicity we have now.
On iOS, beautiful SFSymbol icons that floated beautifully on flat surfaces since iOS 7.0 were encased in absolutely similar circular 'liquid Glass' blobs. Sad.
Comment by duskdozer 3 hours ago
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Comment by mrweasel 4 hours ago
Comment by wpm 8 hours ago
A company 1/100th the size used to design beautiful icons that clearly represented what they meant, and that company was Apple. Now I get SVG slop. SF Symbols can bite me.
Comment by kyleee 11 hours ago
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Comment by noduerme 7 hours ago
I grew up in the 80s with DOS software, when dropdown menus were new and our IBM PC didn't even have a mouse. Since the design idea emerged of using an icon in a menu, which I'd probably locate to the Apple menu on the 128k Mac, my whole life I've seen this push/pull between phases of design and various fads that have emphasized either information density or some kind of simplified graphic/hieroglyphic gloss of the language and intent.
The gloss that works, imho, isn't precisely what has iconic meaning, as the OP postulates. It's what the user becomes familiar with. There's a subtle difference there. An arbitrary icon can be made to mean something over time. But that has to be an intentional process, and it should be tied to a larger theory of the branding and iconography of the company. Otherwise, it's probably worse than useless, even if it does literally signify the action.
Lately, in the last 10 years, I've found myself doing hybrids. I treat icons in selection modes as something like an emoji. If an icon is so universally understandable that no text is necessary, I might prefer it. Otherwise, it would be included only if I need to draw a user's attention to something more than the other items. For example, an extra icon next to a pending issue waiting for approval.
When available too, I'd much rather show a keyboard shortcut than an icon. That's useful information for most users, instead of decoration.
People who don't design for a living often think decoration is design, or vice versa. Decoration is antithetical to good design. And good design is never decorative. If it's not either informational, or what I'd call "aspirationally informational", in that it's training the user to recognize a meaningful design artifact, then it should go. Decorations belong in illustration and background art, to tie the piece together. Not in UI.
I think the main thing is to consider these design choices. Does the icon help someone identify and navigate to something they need to do more quickly? No one is perfectly correct, making that call. It's one of those things where asking the question and thinking about it is 90% of the effort.
Comment by DrBazza 3 hours ago
I click close at least once a day and close the window and not the sidebar that popped out. Windows, KDE, and Gnome don't do this.
Comment by quibono 13 hours ago
2. Click on the hamburger menu in the top right
3. ???
Comment by doginasuit 12 hours ago
Icons can genuinely help convey meaning/understanding. They can also be clutter. It comes down to how you use them.
Comment by OnlineTux 11 hours ago
Granted, I had done this rather than the vendor deciding what icon fit - so I guess my brain had created neural pathways linking the image and the word.
Personally I think there's probably enough screen real estate to have both an icon and text in a menu entry, but menu search is generally more useful for anything not already an icon on the application's toolbar.
Comment by tkdb 13 hours ago
Those, those are ~thoughtful~ icons and not at all default.
Comment by throwaway2046 1 hour ago
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Comment by cosmic_cheese 13 hours ago
I think mid-00s commercial OSes are a good target in this regard. OS X 10.2-10.9 and Windows XP-7 had a pretty good level of density while also feeling relatively clean and would be good to take some cues from.
Comment by freecodeio 13 hours ago
Comment by Kuraj 12 hours ago
This goes against the original argument which is that icons should only be used for universal idioms that can be recognized by the icon _only_. Otherwise it's just noise
Comment by freecodeio 12 hours ago
Comment by Kuraj 12 hours ago
Comment by devilsdata 12 hours ago
I've been hoping Cosmic DE improves enough to be usable.
Comment by cromka 11 hours ago
I was skeptical, too, but it allows for some serious visual tweaking beyond what KDE allows without rewriting code.
Comment by IgnaciusMonk 12 hours ago
Comment by Waterluvian 10 hours ago
Comment by Mikhail_Edoshin 3 hours ago
Comment by VyseofArcadia 9 hours ago
"Hey our metrics show that menu items with icons are interacted with more often."
"Oh we should put icons on every menu item and get our usage numbers up."
"I agree, bigger numbers are more impressive and will get us promotions or bonuses."
Comment by Mikhail_Edoshin 5 hours ago
Comment by wpm 8 hours ago
Comment by eviks 5 hours ago
Not really, you've just gone from one empty argument to another.
> Choosing not to do something you’ve done is experience.
They already had the experience because they used icons before. They had experience adding icons and not adding them to a bunch of menus.
The way out is to use substantive arguments that don't depend on the shaky grounds of someone's authority
Comment by wodenokoto 3 hours ago
Comment by osener 1 hour ago
Here's an example from Chrome on macos:
https://i.imgur.com/I3d8YdA.png
This would benefit from icons at least on new tab, mute, pin, search, split etc
Comment by drewbeck 3 minutes ago
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Comment by publlus_enigma 10 hours ago
Fifteen years later, I am still waiting for them to undo the damage that was done.
Comment by tensor 7 hours ago
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Comment by WillAdams 8 hours ago
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/344729.Designing_Visual_...
and the high water mark of my graphical UI experience was when I used an NCR-3125 running Go Corp.'s PenPoint as a portable/note-taking/sketching device and a NeXT Cube w/ a Wacom ArtZ as my desktop.
Comment by ripharamberip 12 hours ago
Comment by itishappy 11 hours ago
https://blog.jim-nielsen.com/2025/icons-in-menus/
A related post linked to by the previous post:
Comment by calvinmorrison 12 hours ago
The what
Next to the floppy
The what
The hamburger!!
Are you high?
Comment by emadabdulrahim 12 hours ago
Comment by dchest 13 hours ago
Comment by kingforaday 12 hours ago
They needed to make room for Siri.
Comment by peterburkimsher 8 hours ago
You've figured out how to access the Start menu, and figured out where the Power menu is through the icon, but now have a choice between 關機 and 重新開機.
Which one is shut down, which is reboot?
You have one chance, otherwise it requires an embarrassing trip to the server farm.
That specific case led me to make the following table of Windows strings in other languages:
https://peterburk.github.io/i2018n/windowsStringsTable/index...
Although icons in every menu is too cluttered, please don't remove them entirely. At the very least, keep an icon on every menu item that needs to be clicked until the Language setting menu. Oh, and please don't translate the languages in the menu: the user needs to be able to read their own language button.
Comment by farmin 12 hours ago
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Comment by publlus_enigma 10 hours ago
Comment by duskdozer 3 hours ago
Comment by farmin 3 hours ago
Comment by shevy-java 2 hours ago
The icons were distracting for weekdays, but I like icons in the top-menu usually. IMO the user should be able to decide on these things at all times.
Comment by latexr 2 hours ago
Except they didn’t admit it. Watch the WWDC keynote, I don’t recall them admitting any wrongness with Tahoe or Golden Gate, instead they said the design is “even more refined” or some bullshit like that.
Comment by BurningFrog 11 hours ago
That was of course not at all what made the MacOS so usable. The real principles were explained in detail in Apples UI guidelines. But hardly anyone read those, so the icons have been with us for 30 years.
Comment by atoav 3 hours ago
Icons within menus should IMO be used to highlight special options that are often used or options that users have memorized by the icon as well, e.g. download, share, etc.
In the end the highest art is to group the options in a logical way, have them in the right place and remain readable.
Comment by flohofwoe 4 hours ago
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Comment by mrheosuper 8 hours ago
English is not my native language, so i was having a very hard time to learn how to use computer, with icon, my 8 Years old brain can kind of infer what is its meaning.
Comment by pugfugly 11 hours ago
Comment by minimaxa 13 hours ago
Art vs. minimalism in design
Icons are today's form of hieroglyphs for communication?
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Comment by inventor7777 11 hours ago
But at the end of the day, it was like Liquid Glass itself - looks sick in presentations, but in real life, it looks pretty awful.
Comment by spicyusername 11 hours ago
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Comment by St-Kiselevskii 12 hours ago