Triplet of 'ghostly' galaxies hints at what dark matter is and isn't
Posted by gumby 4 days ago
Comments
Comment by nemo136 1 day ago
Humanity, after migrating from biological carbon based substrate, finds ordinary matter not practical to live in. Dark matter has much better properties.
All humanity transfers to dark matter where it finds all the other "ascended" species historically hosted by our universe. Solves Fermi's paradox and keeps the "normal matter" nursery clean for new species to appear.
Comment by M95D 1 day ago
> That all three gossamer galaxies existed along a line, as neighbors, didn’t escape the attention of astrophysicists, who began to coalesce around an origin story.
How about this:
What we see is an advanced galaxy-killer alien weapon being fired at one target, and then continuing to travel beyond that target and making 2 more (unintended?) victims.
Comment by munchler 1 day ago
I was tempted to comment that there’s no evidence that you can make anything complex out of dark matter, but it turns out that some physicists hypothesize that “self-interacting” dark matter could bind into something like atoms and molecules, so carry on!
Comment by cwillu 1 day ago
Comment by sonicvroooom 1 day ago
Comment by blauditore 1 day ago
I'd bet a large chocolate cake that one day, physicists will discover a much more logical explanation for this unexpected behavior of matter.
Comment by nwallin 1 day ago
But we have plenty of observations to lead us to what dark might be and what it definitely isn't.
Any theory of dark matter needs to explain all of the following:
1. The Virial Theorem, galaxy clusters, and the speeds of galaxies in clusters. (both MOND and CDM both do a good job of explaining this)
2. Galactic rotation curves. (MOND and CDM both do a good job of explaining this)
3. Accoustic Baryon Oscillations. (ABO) Immediately after the big bang, everything was ludicrously hot. The most powerful force in the universe was the wash of gamma rays everywhere. These gamma rays carried electrons around. The electric fields of the electrons carried the protons around. (the light dominated phase) As the universe cooled, this flipped; the protons were carried around by momentum, which brought the electrons with them, which mediated the light. (the matter dominated phase, where we are today) During the light dominated phase, sound waves pulsed through the universe, causing dense regions and underdense regions. When the universe flipped from being light dominated to matter dominated, these regions were frozen in time, and we can see them directly in the CMB. (cosmic microwave background) We can analyze the properties of these pressure waves to determine what the properties of the matter and light in the universe were. These waves demand some sort of dark matter. CDM explains these observations, MOND does not.
4. The Bullet Cluster. The Bullet Cluster is a collision of two galaxy clusters. We can measure gravitation lensing and light to determine where the dark matter is and where the regular matter is. The bullet cluster demonstrates that these two properties are not the same. There is matter which has gravity and gravitational lensing, but that we can't see. CDM explains these observations, MOND does not.
5. Ultra diffuse galaxies with very little dark matter. Not all galaxies have galactic rotation curves which require some extra sauce to explain the movement of their stars. Some galaxies are explained perfectly by the matter that we can see in them. So we need dark matter for most galaxies, but some galaxies need to be dark matter free. These galaxies falsify MOND.
6. Leading spiral arms in barred spiral galaxies. The large majority of barred spiral galaxies have their arms trailing from their bars, but a very small number of them have arms which lead in front of the bars. Computer simulations show this happens naturally with CDM, but MOND or dark matter free spiral galaxies don't have a mechanism to cause this to happen.
7. Gravitational waves travel at the speed of light. Most MOND formulations predict gravitational waves travel slower than c; all of those formulations are wrong.
There is a genuinely absurd amount of time, effort, and money that has gone into explaining dark matter. It is not a band aid, we haven't just added 1 to moved on. Everybody is pouring over every step of the algorithm trying to figure out why it's giving us the wrong answer. CDM is the leading hypothesis right now, because it explains all of the observations, and is not falsified by any of the observations. MACHO is/was another theory; it has gone out of fashion because it does not explain all of the observations and makes predictions we do not observe when we check for them. MOND is out of fashion because it is falsified by the data. MOND is still in fashion among a particular brand of people who just want to have their names in the history books; if someone did prove MOND, the history books would all have lists that go "Ptolemy, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Einstein, <your name here>."
But for Pete's sake it's not as if people have their fingers in their ears.
explanation of acronyms/terms:
1. Dark Matter. Dark Matter is the observation that the universe acts as if there's a lot more matter in it other than the stuff we can see. Basically no one says that Dark Matter isn't real; that would imply that the observations are wrong.
2. MOND. Modified Newtonian Gravity. MOND is a family of models which aim to explain the dark matter observation. Instead of using F=Gm1m2/r^2 to determine the force of gravity, we have better math, that gives a different equation, that accurately explains Dark Matter. When you say "physicists discover a much more logical explanation" that's what you're talking about.
3. CDM. Cold Dark Matter. CDM is a family of models which aim to explain the dark matter observation. CDM implies that Dark Matter is explained by particles. CDM implies there is some sort of particle of family of particles which interact with normal matter via gravity as normal, via the electromagnetic or strong nuclear force not at all, or via the weak nuclear force super weakly or not at all. CDM interacts with other CDM particles via gravity as normal, but only weakly via either the weak nuclear force or some other as-yet undiscovered force. People often use the terms Dark Matter (referring to the observation) and Cold Dark Matter interchangeably.
4. CMB. Cosmic Microwave Background radiation. After the Big Bang, the universe was opaque. Light would be absorbed by the stuff in the universe and then re-emitted. During recombination, the universe became transparent. The last moment of the various bits and parts of the universe switching from being opaque to transparent has the entire universe glowing in microwaves. This moment is captured in a snapshot, known as the cosmic microwave background. As we understand the CMB better, we learn a lot--a lot a lot--about the early universe.
Comment by schiffern 1 day ago
Globular clusters should spherically self-lens too, explaining apparent CDM.
However it does neatly explain these ultra-diffuse galaxies. They're not sufficiently dense to self-lens so they can't "get the flywheel going" to ramp up their stellar density and self-gravity-lensing, to shape the large scale structure.
In effect, these ultra-diffuse galaxies would be right on the edge of "failed galaxies," in the same way Jupiter-size objects are sometimes considered as failed stars.
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EDIT I admit CDM irks me because it has (effectively) unlimited tuning parameters, and what's more, you can tune them differently per object! As the history of science shows us, Here There Be Dragons...
[0] classic example being the SOFAR channel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel
Comment by marai2 1 day ago
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
Comment by sonicvroooom 1 day ago
Classic obfuscation method. That remaining static noise gave it away. Somewhere out there is a Savant who reads it like Tank and Link read the Matrix' machine code--blonde, brunette, redhead.
Comment by KingMob 1 day ago
It seems that having some galaxies without dark matter is also pretty bad for CDM. Why would CDM be absent in those cases? Without an explanation, isn't it bad for CDM (as well as MOND)?
Nobody wants a theory where exceptions can be hand-waved away as "Oh, that galaxy must not have DM" or "That galaxy has too much/too little/different balance/etc".
Comment by schiffern 1 day ago
Comment by potamic 1 day ago
Comment by KingMob 1 day ago
Roughly, my question is "Don't we see other post-collision galaxies that still have dark matter, and if so, why?"
If we have two identical scenarios with different outcomes under a theory, that doesn't bode well for the theory.
Comment by stinkbeetle 1 day ago
> if someone did prove MOND
How could MOND be proven if it is disproven? Is there a chance it is not really disproven, or you mean the equations for forces might still be modified in a way that fits observations? Or that it could be MOND plus something else?
> When you say "physicists discover a much more logical explanation" that's what you're talking about.
I wonder what is illogical or band-aid feeling about matter that interacts with gravity but not other forces though. Why would all types of matter interacting with electromagnetism and strong nuclear forces be logical
Comment by metalman 1 day ago
Comment by auntienomen 1 day ago
The standard model has lots of this kind of thing. Leptons don't feel the strong force. Neutrinos are electrically neutral. The weak force only couples to left-handed particles. It seems completely natural to expect some dark matter. The only question is how much.
Comment by samirillian 1 day ago
Comment by Shitty-kitty 1 day ago
Comment by zardo 1 day ago
Comment by uoaei 1 day ago
Assuming it's definitely matter, and operating on that basis for nearly 50 years, is not good science, period.
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
Comment by marcosdumay 1 day ago
They don't. You can read exactly this article for 3 examples.
Modified Newtonian theories are anything but simple.
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
You do make a good point though - astronomy and astrophysics is hard. There are often many ways of interpreting the observations we have. They can be misleading and take careful interpretation, particularly when they seem unusual in some way.
Comment by Buttons840 1 day ago
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
Comment by Buttons840 1 day ago
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
Comment by Buttons840 1 day ago
Visually galaxies are quite varied, which implies, to me, they have a lot of variability in visible matter. Why wouldn't their supposed dark matter vary too?
Comment by solyin 1 day ago
Comment by thrance 1 day ago
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
Comment by phkahler 1 day ago
Im half convinced its gonna be a stupid mistake like that. Whoever finds the correct "advanced" math that allows the mistake to be brushed under the rug could get a Nobel prize.
Comment by nyeah 1 day ago
Comment by analog31 1 day ago
Comment by whatshisface 1 day ago
Comment by srdjanr 1 day ago
We noticed that some equations only make sense if mass is greater than what we'd expect from what we can see. So for now we pretend that there's this dark matter that we can't see, and with it all math so far checks out.
But we don't know if that missing mass exists at all, or if some formulas are wrong. So it's definitely a "hack", but it works for now and we don't have anything better. And we do expect to find an explanation at some point.
Comment by Silfen 1 day ago
Comment by nyeah 1 day ago
Comment by Starlevel004 1 day ago
1. Galactic rotation curves (galaxies spin too fast)
2. Galactic gravitional lensing (galaxies bend too much light)
3. The shape of the cosmic microwave background (it only matches if you have dark matter)
4. The bullet cluster (visible matter collided, but the gravitional lensing kept going)
Non-electromagnetically interacting matter solves all of these, and the same ratio of matter:dark matter solves all of them. That would be one hell of a coincidence.
Comment by XorNot 1 day ago
Comment by daveguy 1 day ago
Comment by Starlevel004 1 day ago
Because we have zero evidence of it electromagnetically interacting. We have evidence of other particles like this, like neutrinos.
> Why can't it just be the equivalent of non-light-emitting asteroids and planets
Because they've been ruled out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_compact_halo_object
You are not proposing anything new. Your ideas have been thought of before, and discarded because they lack evidence.
Comment by daveguy 1 day ago
Comment by dontlikeyoueith 1 day ago
You are describing MACHOS, which was one hypothesis for dark matter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_compact_halo_object
The thing is, we've looked for them. If they were small (asteroid sized), the amount required would be visible as dark clouds obscuring the objects behind them. If they were large (brown dwarf or bigger), we'd see gravitational lensing from them. We don't really see either of those on the scale required to explain the gravitational effect.
Comment by daveguy 1 day ago
Comment by Shitty-kitty 1 day ago
Comment by auntienomen 1 day ago
Comment by daveguy 1 day ago
Comment by auntienomen 20 hours ago
Comment by andrewflnr 1 day ago
Comment by EdwardDiego 1 day ago
That implies far more evidence than actually exists. The science on the age of the Earth is far more grounded in experimental results simply because, well, we live on the Earth.
This doesn't mean CDM-L is incorrect in any way, but saying that questioning it is similar to being a YEC is ridiculous.
There's confident and there's cocky, I think you veered too much in one direction there.
Comment by andrewflnr 16 hours ago
Personally I'm still holding out the possibility of something like MOND being true, even if it looks more and more like it will have to coexist with DM at best. That doesn't stop me from noticing that most of the people who believe in it look exactly like cranks, and many of them actually are. And I'm going to keep pointing this out where it's relevant.
Comment by z3c0 1 day ago
Comment by triMichael 16 hours ago
Everything aligns perfectly with matter that only interacts with gravity. This means it is invisible and nearly intangible. "That sounds crazy, nothing like that should ever exist" you might say. Except it already does - neutrinos. We just don't think neutrinos quite fit the bill.
Imagine if scientists were trying to identify some sort of sea monster, where cameras have gotten minor glimpses here and there. They aren't sure whether it is a giant squid, or octopus, or whale, or whatever and there's a lot of debate around it. And some non-scientist comes along and says "that's obviously a band-aid, we all know that animals can't exist in the ocean, so maybe you are wrong about what the ocean even is."
The problem here is two-fold. First, the non-scientist is misunderstanding the debate. The scientists actually have a pretty good idea of what's going on, they just lack the evidence to nail down the exact thing they are seeing. Meanwhile the non-scientist thinks that they are completely stumped and need an Einstein level change in direction in their thinking. Second, the non-scientist thinks that nothing acts like what the scientists are looking for. However, that's not true, the "weird" attributes aren't all that weird, they just aren't familiar to the non-scientist.
The irony is that while everyone thinks that dark matter is a band-aid solution and there's not much room for it to be, there is currently an idea that is likely to be a bandaid solution - dark energy. The main idea behind the acceleration of the expansion of the universe is that empty space contains energy, which we call dark energy. This makes logical sense and quantum physics agrees it does. However, any kind of actual measurement of the amount of energy per unit of space that we try just doesn't make sense. The theory doesn't align with our measurements to a vast degree (to where it's known as the worst prediction in the history of physics), and our measurements don't even align with each other. There is room here for a truly novel solution, such as varying amounts of energy per unit of space, or the cosmological principle being incorrect.
Comment by uoaei 1 day ago
Comment by MattPalmer1086 2 days ago
[1] https://tritonstation.com/2026/10/15/ghostly-galaxies-in-the...
Comment by TimTheTinker 1 day ago
Comment by someguydave 1 day ago
Ok then
Comment by cwmma 1 day ago
This should set off crank alarms when you read it.
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
He is hardly a crank - but he is definitely not in the mainstream camp.
Comment by Shitty-kitty 1 day ago
"With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk." John von Neumann
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
Yes, it is empirically determined and provides no deeper insight into why it works.
Comment by cwmma 1 day ago
He also seems to have the same problem that many MOND proponents have which is arguing for MOND in blog posts instead of in papers, though he doesn't seem to be as bad as others in this regard.
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
[1] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=lM8J8noAAAAJ&hl=en
Comment by canjobear 1 day ago
This should also set off crank alarms.
Comment by tikhonj 1 day ago
Hell, I've worked with programmers who, entirely honestly, treated "object oriented programming" as a synecdoche for good programming...
Comment by MattPalmer1086 1 day ago
Having read Prof McGaugh's blog and some of his published papers for quite some time, I do not place him in the crank bucket. Make your own mind up I guess. My take is he is a legitimate scientist who holds views outside the mainstream.
Comment by janalsncm 1 day ago
But if dark matter is also interacting gravitationally, why wouldn’t it also be tangled up? And is that something we have seen in other collisions ever?
Comment by Rumudiez 1 day ago
my first impression was this could actually be a counterexample, because there we can see the heavy, dark matter-full clusters continuing on their trajectories at full speed whereas the gas slowed down and is being left behind. compared to these 3 lightweight galaxies which seem to be alone, rather than trailing behind their dark matter-hosting parents
but perhaps these 3 _are_ going slower than their full-scale origin galaxies. I would stake my view as a layman on whether anyone can find the dark matter galaxies that spawned these farther along their expected trajectories
Comment by Starlevel004 1 day ago
Friction between regular matter causes it to lose energy and thus velocity. Dark matter doesn't have self-interaction outside of gravity, so it just keeps going.
Comment by janalsncm 1 day ago
Comment by Sniffnoy 1 day ago
Comment by martinpw 1 day ago
van Neumann's quote comes to mind - "With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk."
Comment by Sniffnoy 1 day ago
Comment by KingMob 1 day ago
This kind of presumes dark matter has been definitively proven already, though.
From the outside, CDM may be a better theory than MOND, but it doesn't seem settled to me. I haven't heard anyone describe it as a "Law" yet.
Couldn't someone equally characterize the creation of dark matter as "adding and tweaking mass until you fit the data"?
Comment by Sniffnoy 7 hours ago
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Comment by potamic 2 days ago
Isn't a galaxy mostly empty space? I thought I read before that when galaxies collide there's actually very little physical contact between the matter. Stars mostly pass through affected predominantly only by change in surrounding gravity. Is this not the case?
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