Heretic removes restrictions from language models
Posted by Bluestein 9 hours ago
Comments
Comment by Aurornis 28 minutes ago
First, the training sets of these models are usually shaped around the refusal, too. They might not have enough of the knowledge to answer correctly even if you stop it from going down the refusal path. If the model was trained on data that gives a refusal to that topic, the real information might not be encoded in the model at all. You’re trying to force it to go down a path that produces an answer, which asking for hallucinations.
Second, the quality can drop on unrelated questions. Depending on the question this may or may not happen. I know they post KL divergence charts but those tell you very little for a focused topic like this.
So if you expect a model that will start correctly telling you info that its local government didn’t want included, this changes nothing.
The best argument for these models is if you are trying to do a general purpose task but the model triggers a refusal based on vague reasons, like not wanting to reverse engineer something.
Comment by radial_symmetry 1 minute ago
Depends on the model. GPT-OSS is the main standout here, it was trained on a highly curated dataset so information that they didn't want in isn't in the pretraining at all. Most other models know the answer and were just taught refusal in post-training.
Comment by orangeboats 6 minutes ago
From experience, the models often do have the knowledge of those topics (strictly talking about the political ones). IMO the refusal is likely to be a product of post-training, as evidenced by various people gaming the prompts just enough to get a proper response out of the vanilla models.
Probably only when you get to things like illicit drugs or NSFL topics, that things will go haywire with the refusals removed.
Comment by Almondsetat 3 hours ago
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Comment by Youden 13 minutes ago
It did a pretty good job.
Comment by BlackRabbit1 13 minutes ago
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Comment by roenxi 3 hours ago
pip install -U heretic-llm && heretic Qwen/Qwen3.5-4B
let alone people just putting the weights up in a torrent. All assuming that someone even tried to ban abliterated models.
Comment by Sayrus 3 hours ago
Comment by roenxi 34 minutes ago
And compared to torrents abliterated models are more complicated to identify, harder to suppress and there is a lot less reason for anyone to care.
Comment by quotemstr 1 hour ago
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Comment by simmerup 1 hour ago
See, the various banned porn varieties for an easy example
Comment by mitxela 2 hours ago
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Comment by api 2 hours ago
Qwen3 and Gemma level models that run on mid-high end laptops and desktops can be pretty good. Not frontier grade, but shockingly competent for something that runs on a single PC. But the hardware you need to run those fast is at least $1000-$2000. Cheap hardware can run them, but slooooooow.
Comment by petra 2 hours ago
Comment by thih9 3 hours ago
Could you elaborate? Do you find it good or bad? What actions can be taken?
Comment by Tepix 4 minutes ago
Then again, it will probably not stop someone who is determined. Same as with other legislation really.
Comment by cyanydeez 3 hours ago
Comment by api 2 hours ago
IMO math is free speech, and outlawing math is censorship.
Comment by ben_w 3 hours ago
If you think closed source software/binaries only is bad, wait until you see how awful the state of the art is with a clear-as-mud bucket of matrix weights.
We know it's possible to train an LLM to secretly respond to certain trigger phrases, and last I checked these could only be detected with the assistance of whoever chose those phrases.
The trigger condition for such backdoors is not something anyone can do a systematic brute-force check for, for the same reason we had to invent LLMs in order to do natural language processing: combinatorial explosion.
Passing around open weight models from known sources is already asking you to trust those sources; because of how difficult this is to do correctly even without deliberately inserting such things, we still don't know if China has already put such trigger conditions into their models despite headlines such as these: https://venturebeat.com/security/deepseek-injects-50-more-se...
Regardless of if it was deliberate or not, we don't know if we caught all of these misbehaviours. We don't know how to.
And note, I'm not saying "and therefore you should trust the Big Name Models". If open weight models score 2/100 in this context, closed ones score 1/100.
Comment by mordae 2 hours ago
With proprietary hosted weights you can be specifically targeted and you would not be able to reproduce nor prove anything.
Poisoning open models would be of short-term benefit to China only if they could target US (and maybe EU + Commonwealth) specifically. Damaging anyone else would be a net loss and would erode the partnerships and alliances they are trying to build elsewhere. So it's a fire-once weapon with a huge risk of collateral damage.
Much more plausible is simply making the models ideologically biased, but as history teaches us, preferring ideology or religion over science is a well-known path to ruin. It would be weird to simultaneously warn public not to use their own open models, so.
I think the most plausible explanation for open models is simply that Huawei wants more customers and is willing to compete on the hardware front.
Comment by ben_w 39 minutes ago
No, you actually cannot. Not in general and without already knowing what the whole trigger pattern is. It's absolutely possible to put in a trigger that only fires while working on backend code on a specific date in a specific company by a specific github username, and no way to find this except by trying that combination, thanks to the terrible state of current mechanistic interpretability tools.
Remember: an AI model is not code. Solving this problem is as hard as the entire alignment problem.
The companies at the bleeding edge of research into this topic do not know how to reliably perform the kind of thing you suggest here.
The only reason we can point at DeepSeek-R1 and say the following, is because we can guess the magic keywords:
we found that when DeepSeek-R1 receives prompts containing topics the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) likely considers politically sensitive, the likelihood of it producing code with severe security vulnerabilities increases by up to 50%.
- https://www.crowdstrike.com/en-us/blog/crowdstrike-researche...> Poisoning open models would be of short-term benefit to China only if they could target US (and maybe EU + Commonwealth) specifically. Damaging anyone else would be a net loss and would erode the partnerships and alliances they are trying to build elsewhere. So it's a fire-once weapon with a huge risk of collateral damage.
This "fire-once weapon" has already been fired, and appears to be a massive foot-gun for every model on a near-continuous basis.
Nobody would use LLMs if the trust deficit alone was a sufficient argument.
> Much more plausible is simply making the models ideologically biased, but as history teaches us, preferring ideology or religion over science is a well-known path to ruin. It would be weird to simultaneously warn public not to use their own open models, so.
"Ideologically biased" is the alternative explanation for the already-observed output of DeepSeek-R1. We can't tell which explanation, malicious or accidental bias, is the actual cause.
Comment by nateb2022 24 minutes ago
Comment by c0wb0yc0d3r 1 hour ago
Why don’t people who release python projects ever encode the venv steps into the installer? Can’t pip just do that step for the user?
Comment by sgarland 1 hour ago
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Comment by nateb2022 2 minutes ago
> The claims seem a bit overstated though, since the metrics mentioned are cherrypicking refusal count and KL divergence, both of which make the outcome seem the most dramatic.
is right out of an LLM.
Comment by FrustratedMonky 1 hour ago
It submits prompts that get refused, then detects and modifies the weights responsible?
Like brain surgery?
Comment by StevenWaterman 1 hour ago
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