Less Coffee, Better Sleep

Posted by edward 9 hours ago

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Comments

Comment by maccard 8 hours ago

I’ve always struggled with sleep. A few things that helped me (in order of importance)

- go to bed and get up at the same time every day. Getting up is more important than going to bed.

- no phone in bed, and limit stimulating activities (intense video games, programming, planning the vacation etc) to 90 minutes before bed. I read during that time but TV, cleaning, music, whatever works.

- a bad nights sleep will happen, often a few nights in a row. Be ok with that (easier said than done, I did CBT for this). Instead of lying in bed restless get up and watch TV, or read.

- leave the house for 30 minutes every day.

- journal as often as possible. Ideally daily, but a few times a eeek. Don’t ever read it back but just write down your feelings and the things on your mind. Do good and bad.

- exercise every other day.

- no coffee after lunch, and never more than 3 in a morning.

It’s a marathon, not a sprint and overall I have way less bad nights than I did before, and I don’t beat myself up as much for the bad nights.

Comment by PyWoody 4 hours ago

  - a bad nights sleep will happen, often a few nights in a row. Be ok with that (easier said than done, I did CBT for this). Instead of lying in bed restless get up and watch TV, or read.
This is the hardest one for me. I'm currently working on about 20 minutes of sleep and I know tonight will probably be the same. I'll lie in bed knowing I should get up and do something to shake the cobwebs out but I'm stuck in a purgatory between exhaustion and restlessness.

Do you have any advice for getting over the initial hump?

Comment by munksbeer 1 hour ago

Have you tried putting on an audiobook and just settling in to enjoy it as long as you're awake?

I concur with a lot of the original advice. I still wake up a lot during the night, but I can fall asleep again by starting my audiobook again. My brain needs to focus on just that one thing, otherwise everything else spins around.

- Exercise, exercise, exercise! I am quite willing to bet that a lot of people with sleep issues don't really exercise properly. Exhaust yourself here.

- Develop a good sleep habit, same time each night.

- Magnesium and melatonin while trying to get the sleep habit started.

- Audiobooks. Not podcasts. An actual story, like someone is reading you to sleep when you were young (if you sleep next to someone, you might need particular band headphones, or lower the volume and put a slim tablet under your pillow).

Comment by maccard 1 hour ago

I did a CBT course on it, the steps were very roughly to stay up until I got tired and then get up at my target time. IIRC that was stay up till 4 and get up at 7:30. That pretty quickly made me realise that I was _definitely_ getting way more sleep than I thought I was. Between “normal” bed time and my bed time, the bedroom rules apply - no stimulating activities etc. I took up reading, but watching light series would be another good one. You don’t go to bed until you’re actually tired - that is “I’m pretty sure I’ve actually fallen asleep on the couch” tired. Then, move it back 30 minutes a week.

Comment by DougN7 4 hours ago

Not the above poster but lookup “sleep hygiene”. A lot of the recommendations are solid and have helped me too, especially about fixing a regular sleep schedule.

Comment by toasty228 6 hours ago

A 30-60min walk around the block before bed does wonders too

Comment by swat535 1 hour ago

For me it's the opposite, if I do any kind of exercise before sleeping, whether it's lifting weights, doing cardio or slow walks, I'll be awake for hours due to energy. My muscles will ache but my mind remains sharp and energetic.

I reserve an hour of "downturn" before bed, which includes a checks list:

* Slow activities like reading a paper book,or watching a movie

* Turning off electronics / putting them on DND

* Dimming the lights

* Shutting the blinds

* This hour can also be reserved for prayers (if you are religious) or meditation / reflections, etc. These help getting out lingering thoughts out of your head

I also have Flux / Night Shift installed on all my devices which forces me to take a break from the screens.

Comment by maccard 1 hour ago

I found that reflection/meditation before bed didn’t work for me. I do my reflection/journalling as part of my “stimulating” activities so that my mind has an hour or so to process what I’ve been doing.

Comment by esseph 5 hours ago

Very much depends on the person.

If I went for an hour walk late at night I'm going to be up for hours and hours and hours.

Comment by tigerlily 7 hours ago

Huh, this'll probably do more than just improve sleep.

Comment by maccard 3 hours ago

I won’t claim to have any qualifications but generally the more I look after myself the better I sleep. The better I sleep the more I can look after myself.

Comment by kitbrennan 7 hours ago

One of the unexpected impacts I experienced when going to zero cups per-day was that I suddenly started dreaming more often and more vividly. It was like how I remember sleep as a child, with nights full of weird and wonderful dreams, rather than only remembering one or two dreams a week as an adult.

I only had this effect when going completely zero caffeine, not when I cut down to one cup a day.

Unfortunately coffee is a vicious cycle, where I end up picking the habit back up on work trips. Before I know it I'm drinking a cup of coffee while writing a reply on HN about how great it was when I gave it up.

Comment by baal80spam 7 hours ago

Oh, interesting, and I can relate!

Incidentally, after being a heavy coffee drinker (5-10 cups per day for many years), I cut my coffee intake to zero. This happened around 3 years ago. At the same time, I started using earplugs every night. Pretty much since I started doing that, I dream several times a week. Previously I had dreams maybe once per month. I suspected that this dreaming was the effect of using earplugs, but now I wonder if it might be the caused by me not drinking coffee (for the curious, I replaced coffee with green tea).

Comment by scoofy 1 hour ago

>Normally I’d drink 4, sometimes 5 large cups of coffee throughout the day (I say cups but it’s literal tea mugs), and it wasn’t until the third I really could get going. Didn’t feel jittery or anything like that, mostly different shades of tired.

This behavioral pattern describes a nontrivial caffeine dependence, not the effects of standard daily coffee consumption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence

Comment by foft 8 hours ago

Cutting coffee to just the morning definitely helped me.

My problem now is that if I think of anything vaguely interesting in the evening then my brain refuses to stop thinking about it. That and restless legs.

Evening if my main time for hobby projects so having them lead to disrupted sleep is really annoying. Any tips?

Comment by pilooch 8 hours ago

Daily sports is the way, purges the body, rests the mind.

Comment by speedgoose 8 hours ago

But not too late, otherwise you don’t sleep well.

Comment by bayindirh 6 hours ago

> Cutting coffee to just the morning definitely helped me.

I drink half a mug (~200 ml) at ~2PM. I drink black tea rest of the day. Used to drink 2L/day at some point (it was a controlled period which required that).

> My problem now is that if I think of anything vaguely interesting in the evening then my brain refuses to stop thinking about it.

Use a notebook to take notes or ooze it out from your brain and try to learn meditation maybe? I do both, and both helps a lot to me.

Also, if doing exercise is not a very good option, try yoga. Looks serene but makes your body work.

Comment by throwaway89201 6 hours ago

> I drink black tea rest of the day

Black tea contains a considerable amount of caffeine too. Aside from that, I know of two people whose years-long mysterious health effects disappeared (one with stomach troubles and the other with bad muscle cramps) after stopping their all-day >1L black tea consumption. The tannins in tea bind to iron, so it might cause iron deficiency anemia (although studies yield conflicting results), which especially woman are already predisposed to, and for which iron deficiency tests are often calibrated towards men .

Comment by bayindirh 6 hours ago

Let me clarify some of the points you have rightfully brought up.

As a disclosure, I hail from Turkey. We consume most tea per capita by a large margin, so we might have adapted to this. I don't know. I'm drinking tea regularly since I'm six, and my family is drinking considerable amount every day, too.

Let's start with iron deficiency which is the most widely touted side-effect. Regardless of the amount of the tea, I have never had iron deficiency or low-iron case in my life. On the contrary, I'm a type of person who wears t-shirt all year long, and generally pretty warm all-over. I mean, the room has AC on, and I also add a small desk fan to keep my cool right now. I'm not overweight either. Nobody from my immediate or larger family has low-iron case either (regardless of gender), and we all drink lots of tea, all day long. So there might be some genetics here.

Mayo clinic suggests that tea has "half the caffeine" of tea (I brew both) [0], however their effects on my body is wildly different. If I overshoot my daily coffee consumption, my heart rate increases and I feel the usual "tension" from high caffeine consumption. However, drinking ~2L of brewed tea doesn't do anything to me. Does not affect my sleep, anxiety levels or anything. It helps me concentrate, sure, but without all the bad side effects of coffee over-consumption. There's a paper about it, but it's sponsored by Unilever IIRC, so I won't share that.

Badly brewed, overly dark or stale black tea brews are not kind to the stomach. That's true. There's a kind of finesse to do it properly. From dosage to waiting times. Even if you do everything right, some people's body doesn't like tea, and that's alright.

Cramps? Now I'm hearing it for the first time, but I don't discount or dismiss it. It's just I never heard it from anyone around.

So while these effects might be true, these are not universal. I was sipping tea by 11PM yesterday and I was dead asleep at midnight, for example. If I have drank another half mug of coffee, I'd be watching sunrise probably.

Addenda: Human body can silently signal what it wants and what it doesn't. Sometimes I automatically stop drinking tea/coffee and switch to water for example. Listening to the body is essential to preserve its balance. Forcing it never ends well. Body is wiser than the mind.

[0]: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...

Comment by gentooflux 8 hours ago

Magnesium, L-Theanine, and vitamin d. Make a regular bed time for yourself, and stop looking at screens 30 minutes before that time. Regular is more importantly than early, I.e. 11:30 is passable but only if it's always 11:30.

Comment by geokon 7 hours ago

I don't have any severe sleep problems, but I can relate to this issue. I find reading fiction helps. It's kind of difficult to dream about an interesting problem or a project, so the way I perceive the problem is that my brain doesn't slip into a narrative free-associative state. But if I can get myself to think about something "dreamable" then it's a different story. A book works b/c you already need to engage your imagination quite a bit as you read anyway

Comment by chedabob 8 hours ago

I always aim to stop doing anything with high cognitive load at least half an hour before getting ready for bed.

Not necessarily no screen time, but coding stops, and the remaining time is spent gaming or watching TV, or I go to bed early and read.

Comment by fredski42 7 hours ago

Reading a dead tree book or using an ereader? I read before sleeping on my iPhone. I just bought an ereader to hopefully avoid this and sleep better.

Comment by chedabob 3 hours ago

E-reader. Went for the latest Kindle Paperwhite as it can adjust the colour temperature as well.

Comment by mightyham 8 hours ago

Wake up early and work on hobby projects in the morning. That's what I personally do sometimes.

Comment by chadd 8 hours ago

magnesium glycinate (and/or a liquid IV or equivalent before bed) helped my restless legs

Comment by esseph 5 hours ago

> That and restless legs.

Magnesium glycinate

Comment by ShinyLeftPad 7 hours ago

Meditate

Comment by Mwntalhwalth 8 hours ago

Recently cut out cannabis, cbd, coffee and all alcohol and its shocking how different your sleep becomes. There needs to be more research done on stimulant free brains and my theory of how better our brains are at "taking the trash out" at night when not pumped full of quick/easy dopamine.

Comment by swed420 6 hours ago

> Recently cut out cannabis

I've found if I cease cannabis use by 5pm each day that it doesn't impact my sleep (or ability to dream and remember them).

I also need to be done exercising (strength or cardio) by late morning to not have an impact on sleep.

Finally, supplementing magnesium with dinner has probably made the biggest impact on increasing restful sleep, in agreement with this recent discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48919363

Comment by fallinghawks 3 hours ago

I've had exactly the same coffee drinking habit for decades: about 22-23 oz first thing before breakfast and that's it. Once in a very rare while (on the scale of a few times a year) I'll have a masala chai or matcha in the evening. My sleep pattern has changed despite this consistency and I believe it's more due to age rather than coffee consumption.

Comment by majorbugger 8 hours ago

For many people this might make a massive difference. But people are not equally sensitive to caffeine.

Comment by voxgen 4 hours ago

Fully agree. I can drink coffee until 6pm and soft drinks until 9pm without impact to my sleep. There's little point in me moderating my caffeine intake.

Light, sleep time regularity, and exercise make a much more noticeable difference. That's where I should spend effort if I want to improve my sleep.

Comment by CapsAdmin 7 hours ago

Whenever I stop drinking coffee for a few days or even months, I find that it becomes harder to wake up. I seem to sleep a lot heavier, but in the morning it's difficult to open my eyes as they feel heavy.

It doesn't matter if I have 1 cup in the morning or drink coffee all day. As long as I have it in my system from the previous day, it's very easy to wake up the next day.

Comment by ShinyLeftPad 7 hours ago

Could be catching up on long term sleep deficiency

Comment by nchmy 7 hours ago

Agreed. This sounds like someone whose system is very out of balance and would benefit from a coffee detox (and significantly more sleep) of at least 2 months.

Comment by Schiendelman 5 hours ago

Do you track exactly how much sleep you actually get? Like with a device, not with a journal. That sounds like you may be aren't getting enough sleep, consistently.

Comment by CapsAdmin 4 hours ago

I've tracked it for a few years with whatever the latest samsung watch is, and it usually says it's good to excellent.

My total sleep time is about 6 hours. deep sleep is about 1 hour and 30 min. rem sleep is about 1 hour and 20 min.

I usually go to bed around 11pm and wake up at 6 am (give or take, I'm married)

It does however warn me about bad sleep if I've been drinking, have a fever, traveling across timezones, or staying up very late for some reason. One of these things may happen every 2 months or so.

I feel mentally good, I'm in shape and in general good health according to yearly checkups. I've been drinking coffee for about 18 years now.

Comment by Schiendelman 3 hours ago

You have good habits. I think six hours may be leaving you with sleep deprivation, though. Despite a lot of pop science about different people needing different amounts of sleep, it seems pretty likely that the overnight chemistry just takes a certain amount of time.

Comment by nchmy 7 hours ago

I'm sure it's different for everyone, but I can only tolerate a tiny amount of coffee now. Like brewing 6-10 grams of beans, once per morning. But even then, after a month or so, it definitely results in generally low energy, worse sleep etc... And I really don't like how it's the first thing that I MUST do when I wake up.

I ultimately have to detox, which I find takes few weeks. And then I'll feel great for a few months "sober".

But I really do love cofeee - I even roast it myself in small batches. So, I inevitably end up drinking it again and the cycle continues.

Life is definitely better without it.

Comment by mattrighetti 8 hours ago

Interesting coincidence - I’ve been drinking only one cup of coffee in the morning for the past month or so.

Used to drink one in the morning and one immediately after lunch. Couldn’t really tell the difference in sleep quality and to be fair I’m waking up more frequently in the past 2 weeks, but I guess that has to do more with heat than anything else.

Listened to many podcasts trying to learn more about this and they all seem to argue that it’s actually more important when you drink coffee. If you get your last coffee right after lunch your body will have almost no caffeine circulating in the system by the end of the day and that will make you sleep better.

Comment by shoobiedoo 8 hours ago

Well I think the key point is that caffeine has a half life of 6 or 7 hours in adults. So 4 coffees before 10am is worse than one coffee at 2pm. That's how I look at it anyway. Regardless, I limit myself to 2 cups before 8am. Now I notice even a late afternoon green tea wrecking my sleep. Can't believe I spent all those years drinking 5 cups well into the afternoon...

Comment by maccard 8 hours ago

> I spent all those years<…>

Sleep changes as we age, so it’s possible that you were “fine” before.

Comment by mattrighetti 7 hours ago

Yeah, 5 years ago I was drinking coffee at 10PM and I was sleeping without an issue. I’m pretty sure that would be a very big problem right now

Comment by muyuu 6 hours ago

Sleep is considerably more fragile with age, regardless of what you do.

Comment by mostlyk 7 hours ago

I want to get better sleep but can not maintain a proper schedule due to university, 2 days a week it's waking up at 8 AM and otherwise 10 AM/11 AM.

I usually have coffee at Morning and a light coffee at 5 PM, it generally helps to do more work because I feel like I want to sit and work. Otherwise I'd dopamine max or play a sport.

Any tips on improving sleep? (It's simply not possible to follow a strict schedule due to multiple deadlines of so many things)

Comment by steve1977 7 hours ago

Why does it have to be 10 AM otherwise? (i.e. why can't it be 8 AM every day?)

I also get up at 6 AM every day because I have to on some days.

Comment by mostlyk 7 hours ago

Because I am usually sleeping at 3-5 AM and waking at 8 just becomes really tiring on those days and it is extremely hard to push through...

Comment by nchmy 7 hours ago

Is there actually a good reason to be sleeping at 3-5am? You'll probably notice significant improvement in all areas of your life if you sleep at something like 10pm EVERY day and wake up at 7am. And get rid of coffee, and exercise regularly.

Comment by Schiendelman 5 hours ago

As the others have commented, wake up at the same time every day. It's really important. It will help. It will take weeks or months to help, don't decide it's not working after a few days.

Comment by satvikpendem 7 hours ago

Wake up at the same time every day.

Comment by safety1st 7 hours ago

Everyone's tolerance and ideal routine is different.

For me, it's:

- One cup of coffee in the morning, optional tea while it's still light out

- Sunlight exposure within a half hour of waking

- 10-15 minutes reading some fiction

- 10 minutes of meditation

Virtually guaranteed to yield a productive day with a good sleep at the end.

In the evening, both phone and overhead lights get turned off as much as two hours before bed. Reading lamps/spot lighting only. Any screens are dimmed.

Comment by andhuman 7 hours ago

What surprised me is that caffeine gets converted to other compounds that _also_ binds to the same receptors thus causing you to feel less tired. And that compound has its own half life. Now I’m just guessing, but it could be that one is more affected by one of the byproducts so to speak than the caffeine itself.

Comment by intrasight 8 hours ago

I was having 3-4 per day. Wasn't feeling so great. Decided for quality over quantity. Had just one cappuccino a week Sunday morning. Did that for several years. But then started a relationship with a coffee lover. Now have 2 in the morning which is as much caffeine as my prev 4. Yet I've had no ill effects.

Comment by nchmy 7 hours ago

Yes, I'm of the opinion that we ought to treat coffee like we do alcohol - once in a while, as a treat. No sane person would say that regular alcohol is a positive thing, even if they do it themselves. It's strange that coffee is treated differently.

Your Sunday morning ritual sounds very nice, especially if it's before or after sowmthing like a hike, bike ride etc.

Ps please dont come with studies about x glasses of wine a day. It's unequivocally a poison and shouldn't be consumed as a routine.

(I had a small glass of wine last night for the first time in weeks)

Comment by pmdr 7 hours ago

Since quitting caffeine 10 months ago I've found it difficult to fall asleep as I seem to have a lot more energy in the evenings. Also, decaf is probably impossible to get in a Swedish workplace, people give you a concerned stare whenever you ask for it.

Comment by satvikpendem 7 hours ago

I started drinking decaf black instead of coffee for the past several years now, that seems to help the psychological ritual of drinking coffee in the morning to wake you up but not actually have (or have very small amounts of) caffeine.

Comment by HelloUsername 7 hours ago

Previous discussion in 2024: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41140565

Comment by beloch 7 hours ago

"For the experiment, I started by taking a day completely off coffee."

-----------

This is an anecdote, not an experiment. What's anecdotal evidence worth?

Yes, caffeine consumption should be appropriate and appropriately timed. Most people are well aware that you should not chug a litre of coffee before going to bed. If I were patient enough to read more of this blog I wouldn't be surprised if there's a story about the author's rediscovery of fire and the wheel.

I appreciate that everyone is having good conversations about their sleep and coffee intake, but this is a really low quality blog post to start them with. I guess we love talking about coffee and sleep just that much. Maybe we should just post a link to the wiki on caffeine periodically instead? Here you go!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

Comment by dan0de 7 hours ago

For me, load up on caffeine early is as efficient and doesn’t affect my sleep negatively. My routine consist of a cup of green tea at 8 am, cup of coffee at 9 am and a last cup of coffee at midday.

Comment by EbNar 8 hours ago

Right now we have 30 ºC at nighttime + 80% relative humidity (and no, no AC). I can assure you that coffee is the last of my problems.

Comment by ccppurcell 8 hours ago

Also high pollen count. I am much more sensitive to heat than my partner but she has allergies. We sort of alternate. Sleeping with AC all night has its own issues.

Comment by ShinyLeftPad 8 hours ago

> Sleeping with AC all night has its own issues.

What are the issues sleeping with AC all night?

Comment by mittermayr 8 hours ago

Dried up air (I love A/C regardless).

Comment by nomorewords 7 hours ago

Does it dry up that much? I have an ikea smart thermometer that's in the flow of the AC and I haven't seen humidity drop below 40% even in summer

Comment by ShinyLeftPad 7 hours ago

To some people below 60% is too dry

Comment by anonzzzies 8 hours ago

I get sleepy after drinking coffee. and also energy drinks.

Comment by david-gpu 8 hours ago

Anecdotally, I have heard people with ADHD reporting that caffeine calms them down. Maybe worth a shot?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-venn-diagram-lif...

Comment by triilman 8 hours ago

This is what I do when get heavy sleepy. 30min or 1 hour sleeping time is enough to stay conscious for next hours.

Comment by keyle 8 hours ago

Over my dead body.

I love coffee. I always have. It has anti oxidant properties. Don't drink the crap coffee. Most Americans have no idea what good coffee is. They're as educated with coffee as they are with nutrition.

Just drink less of it if you must but enjoy it. Get good coffee. Avoid it after 3 PM if you want good sleep. I found a late night cup after a dinner with friends typically sets me right for the drive home and does not damage sleep. But between 3 and 9 PM it's not great for sleep.

Finally it's important to understand that caffeine does not give you energy. It only hides fatigue. If you have trouble sleeping then avoid caffeine. You can get good decaf options today. But they still contain approx a fifth of a regular cup's caffeine.

Comment by kzrdude 8 hours ago

People just have different tolerance. Coffee strictly before noon works well for me.

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Comment by metalman 7 hours ago

better coffee, better everything. but definitly and with ferocious certainty, not more coffee. more coffee is held in reserve for a power run, backed by protien loading, extra hydration and whatever else can help cushion the load, and is followed by some lazy down time to recover, hopefully squinting bleary eyed at a cheque and new number in my bank account and the sleep of the rightiously tired.

Comment by frobisher 7 hours ago

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