The Economic Benefit of Refactoring
Posted by javaeeeee 4 days ago
Comments
Comment by Viliam1234 4 days ago
Boring: The documentation should be in code, not in external Word documents uploaded to the company SharePoint server.
Exciting: The documentation for the AI should be in code, not in external Word documents uploaded to the company SharePoint server.
Boring: You should give your developers the big picture of the project, not just micromanage them using Jira tasks.
Exciting: You should give your AI the big picture of the project in CLAUDE.md, not just micromanage it using prompts.
Boring: Refactoring makes your developers more productive in long term.
Exciting: Refactoring makes your AI more productive in long term.
Comment by seanmcdirmid 3 days ago
The crazy thing is that it s looking like AI might be able to write software better than humans eventually simply because they do not get bored of doing tedious tasks. Many things that we know work but don’t practice because humans aren’t very scriptable are now viable and can be easily applied with agents. For example, I’m finding a lot of success in using separate agents to write implementation and tests from a common specification and then using an auditor to run the tests so neither agent is contaminated by the other’s work. This is just part of the clean room engineering process that was developed for people by IBM in the 1980s, and it was shown useful then, but with AI it can be widely and consistently applied.
Comment by pydry 3 days ago
I find that in the areas where people think that LLMs excel at coding and don't like doing manually it's usually because the human was inclined to slop out repetitive boilerplate and thought that was the only way. Tests are usually like this, sadly.
LLMs are definitely good at providing reams of duct tape (which is drudge work) to patch up those bits of the code base where the code sucks. The problem is that duct tape is not the most architecturally sound construction material.
Comment by necovek 1 day ago
While modern tooling helps, the form of expression still means cognitive load (in reading code, deciding what to copy-paste and refactoring later).
And sometimes, tooling which is succinct brings a whole can of worms with it (think pytest with assertion rewriting and unexpected behaviour of your .pyc files — if you are familiar with Python as your nickname seems to suggest :)).
Comment by weiliddat 3 days ago
There is so much work out there that is repetitive / boilerplate / tedium. If you get to personally work on interesting work more than 50% of the time (pre-LLM) I'd say your job is #blessed.
Comment by pydry 3 days ago
My job is automation and system design, so if I can't fix or work around these things that reflects poorly upon my skills.
Some people treat writing tests as inherently boring because their test frameworks usually suck. If they don't suck and a test is a very close approximation of a spec, it's not boring at all, especially if you use it as a means of codifying a spec before implementation.
Comment by weiliddat 2 days ago
You're lucky to be in a system that works out for you. Not everyone is in such a lucky position. LLMs help automate the tedium out of their job, and hopefully, have a bit more extra energy to make a better system within their immediate locus of control.
Comment by hungryhobbit 3 days ago
In other words, this is not some new AI-bandwagon-jumping blogger trying to rebrand old practices as something new ... this is the guy who coined the very term "refactoring"! He's not pretending what's old is new, he's arguing that best practices from 20+ years ago remain relevant (and showing receipts).
Comment by spot5010 3 days ago
Comment by hungryhobbit 3 days ago
Comment by FartinMowler 3 days ago
Comment by jdlshore 3 days ago
Comment by efromvt 3 days ago
(It is nice that I can make something try our CLI a hundred times in an hour to test that new flag ergonomics, though)
Comment by friendzis 3 days ago
AIs either execute extremely poorly or don't work at all without these. Decent engineering practices are suddenly a hard prerequisite with AIs, not just some longer term improvement.
On a related note, this is unironically good argument to integrate AIs into the workflow even if there's zero net benefit in your use case. It's a perfect excuse to bring the proper engineering practices in.
Comment by whazor 3 days ago
But now that everyone is coding with AI, all agents need to acquire context every session. Thus the value of doing best practices is much higher and benefits are there immediately.
Comment by Garlef 3 days ago
(so through this mechanism, the pain of not refactoring becomes apparent more often)
Comment by Ericson2314 3 days ago
Next up is demonstrating the AI is more productive with better programming languages.
Comment by tikhonj 3 days ago
Key parts of the abstract:
> This raises a question the programming-language community has not previously had reason to ask: should error-message detail be calibrated differently for AI agents than for humans?
> We investigate this question through a controlled experiment using Shplait, an ML-style statically typed language. We construct a suite of programs containing a single deliberate type error each, and measure how often an AI agent repairs them under ablation: a detailed error context using the unification stack; a proximate error location; a minimal type error; and a dynamic (test suite) error only. An automated oracle uses a test suite to classify each repair attempt as a type error, semantically incorrect, or semantically correct.
> We find concrete evidence that more detailed error messages generally improve an agent's ability to fix type errors. We also find that the presence of a type system appears to help more than only test suite failure reports.
Comment by clickety_clack 3 days ago
Comment by flir 3 days ago
(It's an interesting question though - my prediction would be that AI is best in the languages it consumed the most examples of, and I reckon the size of the StackOverflow site for each language would be a rough proxy for that).
Comment by clickety_clack 2 days ago
Comment by seanmcdirmid 3 days ago
This is hard to do given the current reliance on model weights in its programming language knowledge. You’ll get your best results for python or some variation of python. But
Comment by CuriouslyC 3 days ago
Comment by seanmcdirmid 3 days ago
Comment by CuriouslyC 3 days ago
Comment by seanmcdirmid 3 days ago
I would be the first person to give up python for kotlin or some other more natively typed higher performing language. But the python bias is so far too big to ignore.
Comment by kagevf 3 days ago
That actually would be pretty exciting!
But, wouldn't AI be biased toward more popular languages, since those will by nature of their popularity provide more sources for training material?
Even still, the AI could demonstrate which algorithms or maybe patterns and techniques are more productive, in the context of the popular languages.
Comment by gadflyinyoureye 3 days ago
Comment by kagevf 3 days ago
Comment by bobthepanda 3 days ago
As an example, 110v American outlet plugs are almost certainly not the most efficient way to power devices and appliances; but, because they are so standard and are good enough, using them massively eases the burden of making, buying and selling powered appliances in the US. Similar story with USB C.
Comment by kagevf 3 days ago
True, and to my point, "popular" isn't necessarily "better".
> because they are so standard and are good enough, using them massively eases the burden of making, buying and selling powered appliances
Yes, but LLMs can do the heavy lifting when analyzing the "better programming languages" for productivity. There will be a bias toward popularity in their training sources, though.
Comment by mkehrt 3 days ago
On the other hand, having a bunch of different languages is an advantage. People can pick the best tool for the job, and experiment with new language features.
Comment by keeganpoppen 3 days ago
Comment by DimmieMan 3 days ago
Comment by 8note 3 days ago
Comment by fithisux 3 days ago
Comment by whats_a_quasar 4 days ago
It is rather different but another piece of research I liked for the same reason was this report that interviewed Boko Haram members about how they used AI to assist terrorism. You get these interminable online debates that are so unproductive and reporting that is specific is such a breath of fresh air.
Comment by rocky_raccoon 3 days ago
There's something about the puzzle. Looking at my old, deranged coding workarounds that tried to solve problems that have already been solved a thousand times before with established paradigms; and then moving them toward said best practices; and doing it in a way that no NEW technical debt is created. It's just satisfying.
I think one of the best learning experiences for me has been the fact that I created a bunch of sloppy shit by hand, auth and all, which forced me to learn things the hard way. All along the way, people were shouting from the rooftops: "use established libraries, dummy!", which is the same advice I would give to somebody today. But by doing things the hard way, I learned so much more about the inner workings. And, I've also given myself a decade's worth of refactoring work, which I really enjoy!
Comment by nevster 3 days ago
Comment by movpasd 3 days ago
It's quite sad to think this experience might be on its way out, and it really highlights that "junior problem" from AI. There is just no way around diving in to get an intuition for things. Naur warned us of this 40 years ago but the lesson never seems to get learned.
Comment by vogelke 3 days ago
Pride of workmanship. For those who understand, no answer is needed. For those who don't, no answer will work.
Comment by geodel 3 days ago
No one really cared but it satisfied me and make me really happy.
Comment by HappMacDonald 3 days ago
Comment by mattmanser 3 days ago
But all my refactors have been in statically typed languages.
To speculate on the reason why, which the GP asked, I think perhaps it is two things. It's the same satisfaction from tidying a room or your workbench. But it's also slightly narcissistic unfortunately. I think you've shown you're better than the other programmers. Much, much, better when you end up with massive reductions in TLOC.
And with tests, the irony is that the resulting code is often so much easier to reason about, you start spotting really obvious bad assumptions in the original implementation.
It's one of the reasons I've always been fairly skeptical about the true value of unit tests (integration, I get). That and the fact that projects I've worked on that did have unit tests catch like 1 bug a year. Maybe it's just the size of systems I traditionally work on (smaller teams, or even 1 person teams, so man-years worth of effort rather than decades or centuries).
Comment by sqemo 3 days ago
Comment by firasd 4 days ago
An agentic refactoring pass does make sense cause one LLM reviewing work can spot things the ‘generator’ LLM missed while focused on the initial task output
But can the reviewer agent ever actually have in mind what this project actually is? And how the code all comes together to do the work involved? In other words what parts of the code are redundant or can be made more elegant
Asking coding agents to refactor your codebase is maybe like asking trauma surgeons to increase your exercise capacity. The agents are gonna need a really holistic POV to do this properly
I guess part of my point is that just splitting big files into multiple files is only refactoring in a superficial sense without having a theory of what code belongs together and what can be extracted into utility functions etc. Is splitting files actually like decomposing factors or is it like splitting a larger number into smaller numbers that still eventually get added together
A good example of what I mean is that agents often don’t ~actually~ understand the whole system anyway. They might implement a system to store and calculate something that is already being fetched via API. Humans often have a dual perspective — a holistic sense of the project and (when applying our mind to a task) a precise scalpel: ‘oh if we just look at this this JSON it has a key with this data already’
Comment by j45 4 days ago
It was helped by having refactoring experience and approaches to codebases by others, and in my case, being the original architect and being able to speak to the original and current intents, where needed.
This was using a less common, but capable and easy language for the LLM without a ton of dependancy brittleness to manage.. once the effort to remove javascript/python bias was in place, it became so powerful that once the lightbulb went on, it really got cruising.
The project was playing in the world of JSR-223 languages, where you could script in many popular languages, but it all got to run in the JVM, which was an environmental requirement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_for_the_Java_Platfor...
Comment by zahlman 4 days ago
If you ask it to implement a specific kind of refactoring over a specific section of code it seems that current LLMs can do just fine. Even things as complex as "use `functools.partial` to implement the Command pattern here, rather than dataclasses".
> Is splitting files actually like decomposing factors or is it like splitting a larger number into smaller numbers that still eventually get added together
The file boundaries represent logical subsystem boundaries in the code, making it easier to reason about. The training data abundantly represents the idea of treating the contents of another file as opaque by default while other functionality in the same file can be used freely. I think it's reasonable to assume that there's something objective about the benefits that humans get from this, and it isn't just a consequence of how human cognition works.
Comment by zuzululu 4 days ago
It's very important that you are using coding agents with the latest frontier models and know exactly what it can't and can't do if you want to be hired in this market.
Comment by firasd 4 days ago
Comment by zuzululu 4 days ago
I am currently working 3 remote jobs thanks to agentic coding and one of the jobs require me to interview and hire other devs. I find it amusing how many are irrationaly resistant and unwilling to use agentic coding. They are also the loudest in the room with opinions that are outdated. On the flip side, it's just as funny how to see how complicated engineers try to make agentic coding. It doesn't have to be and that's not its design. Don't get in its way as much as possible. The frontier models are good enough that adding complexity only wastes more tokens. We've come a long way from the summer you were fiddling with Sonnet 4.5 in Cursor or windsurf.
The job market isn't suddenly going to swoop in and save you by banning AI agents. Keep up or get left behind. Don't let other people's opinions about AI agents hinder your own progress, chances are they have no skin in the game.
Comment by JacesArchivist 4 days ago
The deferral of all agency as a product owner over to the stochastic-word-box-in-a-do-loop feels like the kind of thing that, if you mentioned you do that in an interview, would be grounds to not continue.
Re: your updated comment, I'm glad you've found success with this pattern of behavior, but I'd suggest that you might be extrapolating "I haven't been punished yet for this shortcut" to "This is the future of work and those who disagree are luddites".
Comment by apsurd 4 days ago
"enhance"
fwiw codex is very good. arguably better than the sonnet equivalent (value-wise). I use both daily, professionally. And "refactor this code spin up subagents" is hardly an expert-level "I wouldn't hire you" flex.EDIT: agree with your comment updates. I'd just say it more positively leaning especially to people who are stressed financially. SOTA has advanced a lot so counter-intuitively being behind isn't really behind, it can almost be a way to leap-frog, lean on the Agents. But definitely you have to commit to putting in the reps and learning and not just mindlessly instructing AI to "fix it". Think that's where the discussion splits.
Comment by BenoitEssiambre 4 days ago
Refactoring towards good abstractions is more powerful than people realize. There's information theoretic bayesian math to back this up.
It's a bit of a divine coincidence that software that is more economically and energy efficient to process and run tends to also be more correct.
It's all about reducing the entropy of your code. https://benoitessiambre.com/entropy.html
Comment by hammock 4 days ago
In all corners of our world and the universe at large, reducing entropy in anything can be thought of as “building.”
Comment by HappMacDonald 2 days ago
Comment by golemotron 3 days ago
Comment by pmg101 4 days ago
It matches my experience which is that LLMs greatly benefit from well factored code, but are not particularly adept at creating such code.
Much like most human developers I suppose!
Comment by jerf 4 days ago
I still get a big win from AI on the net, but you do need to budget some time to clean up. I'm still on team "read every line".
In fact this is a case where I deliberately deferred some review because I was a blocker for another team. Now that I've got something to them I'm going back and I'm going to eat a bigger chunk of debt than I normally would, but it's worth it for unblocking the other team sooner. AI has made tech debt easier to take out, in all senses of that term.
It is also pretty decent, in my experience, at being guided into how to fix tech debt. Some other people's experience varies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49035455 YMMV.
Comment by tengbretson 4 days ago
Comment by j45 4 days ago
I've had some luck while refactoring by helping it shape how to refactor, which can improve how well factored code should look like.
Providing examples of well factored code can go a long way, even if it's an open source repo of what to do / not to do.
Comment by sltr 4 days ago
I appreciate the effort to quantify the benefit rather than pontificate. It's worth mentioning Martin Fowler wrote a whole book on refactoring [1], in which he states, "to refactor, the essential precondition is [...] solid tests", which I think is the real benefit here, AI or not. Good tests protect against regressions, whether human or robot. They also help encode the spec, which humans and robots can read.
[1] https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/refactoring-improving-t...
Comment by pmg101 4 days ago
Comment by dash2 3 days ago
> Every single change that touches the data access layer from this point forward now costs significantly less.
> How much of a saving? Assuming Sonnet 5 pricing at the time of writing of $3/MTok, 39.7 cents.
Now consider OpenAI's price drop, and open models, and consider that in the long run tokens will get cheaper. And think that the refactor needs to be human guided at a price of what for a senior developer - $100/hour?
Comment by disgruntledphd2 3 days ago
If the agents can read less tokens in the future, and make changes more effectively then this would add up over time.
Comment by holtkam2 3 days ago
Comment by pragmatic 4 days ago
Feature, bug or emergent property?
I don’t think the distinction matters as much as the reality.
We’re being locked into using the AI tooling bc the code was generated with AI tooling.
These giant files of doom were being generated by humans anyway and were very hard to work with. With LLMs it’s at last manageable or feasible to edit, refactor etc.
I honestly think LLMs are going to save us from ourselves as the codebases became too large and “messy” for humans to comprehend. (Mono repos of doom)
On a personal level these giant files are abhorrent but that’s just personal taste and I don’t think any of the Martin Fowler refactor/cleanup stuff is going to matter at all anymore. Kinda sad on some level.
Comment by Catloafdev 4 days ago
This just fundamentally isn't true and if this is your perspective then you're using LLMs wrong.
Comment by ahalay-mahalay 3 days ago
Comment by apsurd 4 days ago
Comment by antonvs 4 days ago
Right, I've never seen an agent produce code anywhere near as bad as some of the human-generated code that I've worked on.
And, if your agent is producing huge files or functions, you can just tell it not to and it'll comply.
Comment by victorbjorklund 3 days ago
Comment by danbruc 4 days ago
Comment by stingraycharles 4 days ago
Comment by danbruc 4 days ago
- the code is essentially good but all is in one file, you split it up, lines of code stay the same
- the code is essentially good but lacks some structure, for a function that does five things directly, you extract the functionality into five functions and call them from the original function, lines of code goes very slightly up
But once the code is actually bad - code duplication, bad abstractions, inefficient language use, ... - I would generally expect the lines of code to significantly drop. What scenarios are there where the code is actually bad but refactoring does not reduce the lines of code? It is certainly possible but at moment I am having a hard time comming up with a good example.
Comment by zahlman 3 days ago
IMX: the scenarios where people hold higher standards than what you describe :) (i.e. such that "the function does five things" is deemed "actually bad". Of course, that does depend on the refactoring not causing an unacceptable performance hit, which can happen depending on the environment.)
Comment by danbruc 3 days ago
What I really want to get at is the distinction between leaving the actual code untouched and just moving it a bit around - to other functions, other classes, other files - and having to change the code - from deduplicating to completely rewritting it.
Comment by NichoPaolucci 4 days ago
Taking a component and turning it from 7K lines to 3K lines and maintaining functionality obviously means there’s less complexity introduced, less to go wrong now, and less overhead to modify in the future.
Sure it can go the other way, the component needs to support something it might need, we need to adjust larger patterns, this function needs to be refactored into something more robust.
But lines of code is a pretty decent metric of success for “trimming down and cleaning up” style refactoring, to me at least. It’s not everything of course, but it’s definitely an indicator.
Comment by Shish2k 4 days ago
Comment by j45 4 days ago
Since LLMs are word generators, and have a propensity to generating words, they need to be shaped to understand simplest is best, more isn't more, and less isn't more always.
Trimming down and cleaning up could be formatting, standardization, commenting, or even some basic re-architecting that was overdue.
One of the biggest benefits of llms for refactoring I'm finding is reducing technical debt.
Comment by Catloafdev 4 days ago
Total LOC is a garbage metric. Things like reducing line count in specific files or components is a big benefit, but those lines are often moved, not dropped.
Comment by whats_a_quasar 4 days ago
Comment by gga 3 days ago
There’s further work to do to understand exactly what’s going on here.
Comment by j45 4 days ago
In some projects, the code might not have much, or enough testing, or documentation/commenting.
Code is largely for others and the future if the creators of it want to move onto other projects.
Comment by benrutter 3 days ago
It's partly that refactors themselves have benefits, but I think more that the benefits to refactoring aren't visible to something like product-owners, feature tickets, etc.
If teams are refactoring to ensure the health of the overall software, it's a tell-tale sign that developers are happy making recommendations for good software, and that those recommendations are being taken seriously.
I think Martin Folwer might have actually coined the term "software rot" - either way, as an issue it happens most severely when a team either aren't motivated or empowered to build their vision of high quality software. When a team can follow their judgement of excellence, that's usually a great sign!
(and yes, obviously this can go to far, there are probably some teams who rewrote all their stuff in Ruby then Node then Rust and now something else to be "agent native", but in the coorporate world, I see a lot less of this than teams who just don't feel like they have permission to improve things)
Comment by imoverclocked 4 days ago
Comment by jimbokun 3 days ago
async fn watch_item(&self, item_id: &str, user_id: &str) -> Result<()> async fn unwatch_item(&self, item_id: &str, user_id: &str) -> Result<()> async fn watched_items_for_user(&self, user_id: &str) -> Result<Vec<String>>
This shows the limitations of vibe coding. It takes someone with a long history of software development to prompt for something like this.
Even though the model is writing 100% of the code, still needed someone with a lot of programming knowledge to write the prompt.
Comment by skydhash 3 days ago
Most of software development is looking at some process and then decomposing it recursively until you get to those molecules/atoms of the computing world. Coding them is trivial, and while you can gain a certain boost from the AI, after a while you no longer have to write that much code. It will turn into a balancing act where the introduction of a new concept has to be done carefully.
Comment by nycticorax 3 days ago
Comment by gga 3 days ago
Comment by nycticorax 3 days ago
Comment by t2ance 4 days ago
Comment by vaylian 4 days ago
> Claude is unable to look at code, look at refactorings in general and work out which are suitable to apply: a human needs to actively guide it.
Claude is happy to produce a very large Rust file. But you need human guidance to make it smaller.
Comment by vehemenz 4 days ago
Comment by jmartrican 3 days ago
Comment by gga 3 days ago
Comment by the__alchemist 3 days ago
Comment by vehemenz 4 days ago
Comment by ChulioZ 3 days ago
Comment by jmartrican 3 days ago
Anthropic told me that I have till August 19th to be get my act together becuase they are going to reduce my token count by 50%. lol. I have been abusing my Pro Max allowance and need to start being less wasteful.
Articles like this, can help us come up with ideas on how to do it.
Comment by ukoki 3 days ago
Comment by hiAndrewQuinn 3 days ago
Couldn't have said it better myself. Deciding to refactor should be like a discounted cash flow analysis but for tokens!
Comment by persedes 3 days ago
Still a nice writeup and love how these meta analysises (presumeably) done via AI can now easily capture metrics that inform your workflow.
Comment by okzgn 3 days ago
Comment by wolttam 3 days ago
This is just the type of thing that stands out.
You used a tokenizer library to determine the number of tokens in your text by dividing its length by 4.
That makes no sense!
Comment by theturtletalks 4 days ago
Make it right is the refactoring
Comment by janpeuker 3 days ago
I am just sitting here waiting for Grady Booch to write "Architecture!"
Comment by awsglkhj 3 days ago
Comment by gowld 3 days ago
Why is this something users have to distinguish? Why can't these generative AIs choose good names for things?
Comment by solarized 3 days ago
"always give ultimate decent code in term of maintanibility, cleaness, and perf".
Comment by defrim 4 days ago
Comment by sltr 4 days ago
Comment by kattenelvis 4 days ago
Comment by 4b11b4 3 days ago
More quantitative and qualitative analysis to come
Comment by paxys 4 days ago
Comment by Ginger-Pickles 4 days ago
Comment by MS8080 3 days ago
Comment by L-patpat 3 days ago
Comment by knighthacker 4 days ago
Comment by supportm 2 days ago
Comment by sharpvik 3 days ago
Comment by Ozzie-D 3 days ago
Comment by Natalia724 4 days ago
Comment by neet_dev 3 days ago