RFC 8890 – The Internet is for End Users (2020)

Posted by notarobot123 4 days ago

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Comments

Comment by dlcarrier 4 days ago

Inevitably the internet will have two types of users:

    1. The anti-bot bots that must stop you from proceeding, because they aren't entirely sure you aren't a bot
and

    2. The bots that can get past them, which we all must eventually deploy, if we want a chance to visit a web page

Comment by ACCount37 4 days ago

Why would anyone ever want to solve 99 Cloudflare captchas a day if you can get a bot to do it instead?

Comment by iso1631 4 days ago

Literally used an LLM to answer the latest one 20 minutes ago, which was "what can climb a tree".

Cloudflare is a blight on the internet, but HN loves it.

Comment by pocksuppet 4 days ago

Cloudflare just started blocking Googlebot, so maybe we'll see an exodus away from Cloudflare by people who want their sites indexed? Hopefully?

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by warkdarrior 4 days ago

I thought Google Search is dead, everyone is using ChatGPT now to find information.

Comment by fl4regun 4 days ago

but how does chatGPT find information?

Comment by tempodox 4 days ago

With bots that break through cloudflare captchas. As a human, I immediately close the browser tab when I see one. If you make your site inaccessible for humans, only the bots remain.

Comment by voakbasda 3 days ago

My fucking bank just added one to their login page. Glad I am moving next year and will take the opportunity to switch banks.

Comment by account42 3 days ago

CAPTHAs on login pages are the biggest farce. I already proved that I am human wen I signed up FFS.

Comment by fl4regun 4 days ago

I was more so asking how does it know where to look to find information, if things are no longer being indexed.

Comment by smallnix 3 days ago

I assume they have their own index of the web. Or perhaps there are companies where you can buy such indices. And then mix and match those, perhaps with your own too.

Data is basically their business.

Comment by dormento 4 days ago

Cloudflare spreads everywhere and kills the drive to do nice things. It is akin to a disease.

The question is, what is the alternative to cloudflare? We've tried (to various degrees) user id, micropayments, device attestation... I'm not hopeful we can actually solve this. Maybe if there was a neutral, "NGO-like" cloudflare of some sort?

Comment by iugtmkbdfil834 4 days ago

Not any kind of original work.

But

The llm thing started to change me in a sense that I no longer really feel obligated to use everybody else's solutions. It may be harder and harder to get onto the 'old web', but my new small project put a website from cellphone and is available for as long as I need it to be available.

The short answer to what we can do is 'adjust accordingly'.

Comment by eqvinox 4 days ago

> Cloudflare spreads everywhere and kills the drive to do nice things.

How about an internet where we don't need CloudFlare?

One without zillions of AI crawlers and script kiddies with Terabit DDoS capability… (the latter being the harder problem)

Comment by theendisney 3 days ago

Bittorent grinds on undisturbed.

Imagine archives with static content and user friendly file selection. Like those old world printed product catalogs mixed with content more like books and magazine. One can still have interactive headless websites/api and checkout pages.(Updated) torrents can share folder and file names but you have to force re-check. Could automate that too.

They can be many TBs large, no need to download the entite thing.

Comment by ACCount37 3 days ago

It's like the good old joke about a bear-proof trash can.

There is now a considerable overlap between the capabilities of the dumbest users and the smartest AIs.

Comment by ivanjermakov 4 days ago

> but HN loves it

There is popular sentiment on HN that CF is making internet worse by being a core infrastructure element most websites use.

Comment by tempodox 4 days ago

It’s not the core infrastructure part that makes the internet worse.

Comment by thenthenthen 3 days ago

Early 2000’s they turned of PUBLIC tv here. To receive public funded TV you now need a digital subscription. I never thought this would happen to the internet, as in… its becoming more of an intranet everyday.

Comment by livingsoft 3 days ago

yes, but it can be not so grim - we just need to equip everyone with the means to grow their own local webs, and find a way to connect them by p2p. call it Mycelial Web: federation of local webs that grows by processing the dead material of the open web into personal http worlds grown in containers.

Comment by aftbit 4 days ago

The internet is for whoever wants to send bits to each other and is willing to pay for transit to do it. The WWW might be for end users, though that seems less obvious by the day.

Comment by pocksuppet 4 days ago

Right. The RFC is attempting to clarify the IETF's official position. The IETF is not the internet police, and can't make other actors obey.

We can make our own internet though - with blackhack and jookers.

Comment by lenerdenator 4 days ago

Honestly, I feel like your draft could dispense with the internet part of the proposal.

Comment by supermaurio2000 4 days ago

what you write is excactly the problem the RFC tries to address. And not only for http but for the whole internet protocol family.

Comment by reactordev 4 days ago

sorry but that ship has sailed.

Comment by account42 3 days ago

Then we'll just have to make it return to port.

Comment by penguin_booze 3 days ago

> for whoever

Whomever.

Comment by aftbit 2 days ago

Whomever thought this was a post worth making?

Comment by Bender 4 days ago

The internet is for porn [1] Mostly SFW, headphones

I know I know, it's original purpose was to be a weapon. [2] It has certainly devolved into a weapon to divide the people.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_zAlVv73HI

[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Xxi0b9trY

Comment by voakbasda 3 days ago

Mission accomplished

Comment by vouaobrasil 4 days ago

I think fighting for a purpose-based ideology of the internet is actually doomed to fail because the form of the technology will dictate how its used and regulation and efforts will only slightly affect that.

E.g. If the internet is super-fast and has the capability to deliver video ads, it will be used for that. If everyone just had a connection with the speed of a 56K modem, that video-based ad model wouldn't work.

If we really want the internet to be a certain way, we have to change the underlying technology used, not the ideology behind it. Because if an technology has a capability, it will be used to do whatever is most successful in the capitalistic system, not what's best for 'end users'.

Regulation sometimes be effective, but...the model of regulation in a world of freely-evolving technology is a broken system most of the time.

Comment by michaelmrose 3 days ago

Regulation is on average stunning effective. You simply complely fail to notice all the times it works, notice whenever it doesn't, and profess that it doesn't. There is no meaningful alternatives.

Comment by Atlas667 4 days ago

This is why ideology is so important.

Is the end user viewed as an ISPs client? a consumer of tech companies?

The idealistic language is fine but isnt based on any scientific approach to society. Its neutral at best.

The internet is for end users, but how if its not "by end users"?

If most protocols and standard implementations depend on adoption by ISPs and tech companies what does it mean to be "for the end user"?

Is prison architecture "for the prisoners"?

So how do we solve the "by end users" dilemma?

Comment by Elzair 2 days ago

That was a good article. From the title I assumed it would be about "agents". It is good to consider non technical considerations into the promotion of a protocol. I am glad that someone is still standing up for privacy.

Comment by iso1631 4 days ago

Who's an end user.

Unless you own your hardware, you aren't the end user. When your phone, tv, camera, or even laptop on a non-free OS is on your network, you can get some semblance of control by controlling what network services it uses.

Things like DoH are part of the removal of my control as a home user and give it to Sony, or Apple, or TPLink

The most obvious thing is it becomes harder to block adverts.

Throw in internet-centralisation through HN darlings like cloudflare and you're screwed. You have no idea what anything is talking to, as it's the same destination IPs, so the choice is either block it completely, or allow it with no control.

Comment by 1718627440 4 days ago

I do share your actual concern, but I think the term 'end user' applies to any human sitting in front of a computer, trying to achieve something, independently of whether the effective sysadmin works against his interests or not.

Comment by __MatrixMan__ 4 days ago

Right, it's not about property, it's just about whether the computer is helpful to the immediately available human or whether it serves some remote one.

Comment by 1718627440 2 days ago

The end user continues being an end user, even if the respective computer/system is unhelpful or crashes.

Comment by remix2000 4 days ago

> Who's an end user.

I think in this context it'd be any netizen who does not hold a significant amount of power to influence other [unrelated to them] netizens?

Comment by iso1631 4 days ago

So me. The only influence I have over what "my" phone does is monitoring and blocking what it connects to when it's connected to my network.

DoH works against that

Comment by Sha1rholder 4 days ago

Every technology has both pros and cons. Those who develop standards must weigh both sides rather than considering only one of them.

In countries where the internet is subject to censorship, as well as in regions with underdeveloped infrastructure, DNS queries are highly likely to be deliberately tampered with, poisoned, or hijacked. DoH is a very practical way to mitigate this problem, and I do not believe that the ability to block advertisements is more important than that.

Moreover, advanced users can still run their own DNS services for ad blocking, and, at least for the foreseeable future, DoH will not prevent them from continuing to use traditional DNS. You cannot criticize an important improvement in security merely because it makes ad blocking less convenient. Other people may face threat models that are a hundred times more serious than yours.

Comment by murzynalbinos 4 days ago

[flagged]

Comment by paulddraper 4 days ago

This is an awkward read, the result of trying to convey an idea while couched in other language.

That idea being that AI is less important than humans.