How old is Ann?
Posted by ibobev 4 days ago
Comments
Comment by judofyr 4 days ago
Mary is 24 years old. When Mary was Ann’s current age, Ann was 12 years old (half Mary’s current age).
This makes it a bit easier to realize that Ann’s age has to be right in the middle of 12 and 24.
Comment by gnodar 4 days ago
> Mary is 24 years old. She is twice as old as Ann was when Mary was as old as Ann is now. How old is Ann?
Which I read as:
> Mary is 24 years old. When Mary was Ann's current age, Anne was half the age she currently is.
Which would mean Anne is 16 (because when Mary was 24-8=16, Anne's current age, then Anne was 16/2=8, half Anne's current age).
But re-reading it, then for that to be true the original would have needed to be phrased:
> Mary is 24 years old. She was twice as old as Ann was when Mary was as old as Ann is now. How old is Ann?
Comment by quuxplusone 4 days ago
> (A writer to the Montgomery (Alabama) Advertiser of 1903-10-24 points out that you can get the apparently-most-common wrong answer if you read the puzzle incorrectly as “She was twice as old as Ann was when Mary [sic] was as old as Ann now is.”)
Comment by tempfile 4 days ago
How did you actually make that deduction? I can only see it by writing down an equation. I can't see anything in the problem that directly implies it.
Comment by losvedir 3 days ago
Think of it on a number line. Mary is 24 now, Ann was 12 then. There's a point somewhere between the two, representing Mary's age at that time.
---*-------*---------------*--------
12 ? 24
The problem states that time has passed such that Mary has aged to 24 and Ann has aged to that point. You can think of time passing as a line growing out of each of them: ---*===----*===------------*--------
12 ? 24
Since time progresses equally for both of them, and Ann is now that mystery age, and Mary is now 24, you can see that the distance from "12" to "?" has to be the same distance as "?" to "24".Comment by SV_BubbleTime 3 days ago
Wild assumption. I saw absolutely nothing in the text to indicate their relative velocities.
Comment by seemaze 3 days ago
A1 M1
A0 M0
+----+----+----+----+----+
0 6 12 18 24Comment by judofyr 4 days ago
I also realized that this can be expressed in terms of a two pairs of sibling:
> Mary and Ann are the same age difference as Jane and Claire. Mary is 24 years old. Mary is twice as old as Jane. Claire is as old as Ann. How old is Ann?
This highlights also why it's so confusing:
> Mary is 24 years old. She [Mary, today] is twice as old as Ann was [Ann, past] when Mary was [Mary, past] as old as Ann is [Ann, today] now. How old is Ann?
In one sentence we're comparing past and present ages.
Comment by stavros 4 days ago
Let's say Ann's current age is 13. Then, when Ann was 12, Mary must have been 13. Now that Ann is 13, Mary must be 14, but she's 24.
This means that the only way for Mary's-age-when-Ann-was-12 to have been Ann's-age-now is for the same amount of years to have passed between Ann being 12 to being Ann's-age-now than from Ann's-age-now/Mary's-age-then to Mary's 24, which is 18.
Comment by natpalmer1776 1 day ago
Ann is 6 years younger than Mary, who is 24 years old.
Or even better, Ann is 18 and Mary is 24.
But then again, I always disliked word-based logic problems that didn't correspond to genuine complexity. If something CAN be stated in simple terms, I believe it should be. If you want to create a word-based logic puzzle then present a genuine problem that can be engaged with rather than a poorly formulated explanation of the mundane.
That being said, I have no idea how I would present the same fundamental logical puzzle using a material problem that doesn't have a simpler distillation that solves the problem for you. Maybe I'm just not cut out for the realm of intellectual puzzles.
Comment by JKCalhoun 3 days ago
I'm not sure why it needs rephrasing—it seems pretty straightforward? What am I missing?
16 works (as another pointed out). Ann is 16 and Mary would have been that age 8 years ago—when of course Ann would then have been 8 (Mary, at 16, was twice her age).
Comment by mayoff 3 days ago
The problem states “She _is_ twice as old as Ann was”, not “She _was_ twice as old as Ann was”.
Comment by quickthrowman 3 days ago
Comment by HarHarVeryFunny 3 days ago
I think what makes it confusing is the "variable overloading" referring to both the current ages of Mary and Ann (M & A), and their ages at some point in the past "when Mary was as old as Ann is now" (M' & A').
So, what we're given is:
M = 24
M' = A
M = 2A' => A' = M/2 = 12
Since the age gap between Mary and Ann is constant, we know:
M - A = M'- A'
So, substituting in the known values:
24 - A = A - 12
2A = 36
A = 18
We can double check the result. Since Mary (24) is 6 years older than Ann (18), then when Mary was 18 Ann would have been 12, so Mary is now twice that age as given.
Comment by bayesnet 3 days ago
Mary := 24 = 2(A - Δ)
A = Mary - Δ
And then it’s just substitution. But of course what appeals to one’s intuition is very personal
Comment by HarHarVeryFunny 3 days ago
M = 2A' "Mary is [now] twice as old as Ann was ..."
M'= A "when Mary was as old as Ann is now"Comment by m_herrlich 2 days ago
Comment by losvedir 3 days ago
Mary is 24, which is twice as old as Ann was some time ago. At that time, Mary was the age that Ann is now. What is that age?
Comment by sebmellen 4 days ago
> Mary is 24 years old. She is twice as old as Ann was (12) when Mary was as old (18) as Ann is now (18). How old is Ann?
So 6 years ago, Mary was 18, and Ann was 12.
Today, Mary is twice the age that Ann was (12 * 2) at the time that she (Mary) was 18, making her 24.
What makes it confusing is that the sentence is comparing Mary’s present age with Ann’s past age (which I did not catch until mulling it over a bit).
Comment by Brendinooo 3 days ago
> mary is 24
> 8 years apart: ann is 16 now, when ann was 12 mary was 20
> 6 years apart: ann is 18 now, when ann was 12 mary was 18
> 4 years apart: ann is 20 now, when ann was 12 mary was 16
Comment by tempfile 4 days ago
I can't see a way to do it without algebra.
Comment by NooneAtAll3 4 days ago
Comment by pmontra 4 days ago
> Mary is 24 years old. She is twice as old as Ann was
So Ann was 12
> when Mary was as old as Ann is now
So Mary is older than Ann.
The age of Ann is somewhere between 12 and 24. Without much thinking I'd say that probably 12 and 24 are not included and probably it is an even number.
We can test each of them.
If Ann is 14 now, when Mary was 14 (10 years ago) Ann was 4 year old and Mary would be 8 now, this is not the solution.
If Ann is 16 now, when Mary was 16 (8 years ago) Ann was 8, Mary would be 16 now, nope.
If Ann is 18 now, when Mary was 18 (6 years ago) Ann was 12, Mary would be 24 now and she is. This is the solution.
Ann is 18.
Comment by zephen 4 days ago
In my opinion, this method presumes a clear understanding of the problem itself.
If you didn't have a clear understanding of the problem, you would not be able to test an answer to see if it is correct.
Now, this clear understanding of the problem could, of course, be coupled with a lack of understanding of other methods available (such as algebra) to solve the problem.
OTOH, maybe it's just coupled with a clear understanding that with the working memory that you have available to you right at the moment and without writing anything down, you don't even need those other methods.
Comment by tempfile 4 days ago
Comment by zephen 4 days ago
This is related to "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
It's slightly different, because you've supercharged your hammer. Everything you ever understood about how to solve word problems has been subsumed into what your brain labels as "algebra."
But look at it this way:
1) Did you use algebra to convert the problem to algebraic form? Probably not; algebra says nothing about word problems.
2) Once it was in algebraic form, did you need to repeatedly apply algebraic rules in order to reduce the problem, or could you glance at it and figure it out?
You may also be hampered by your choice of variable, because you chose "X" to be an intermediate variable.
If, instead, you choose "X" to be what you are searching for, Ann's current age, then the problem setup is:
24 - x = x - 12
Which many of us can solve in our heads without writing down, or even without consciously converting "Ann's current age" to "X".Comment by tempfile 4 days ago
> If X is Ann's current age, then the problem setup is: 24 - x = x - 12
How did you get this equation from the problem statement? The equation is of course correct, but I don't see how you would derive it, other than writing down a more obvious equation and rearranging it.
Comment by zephen 3 days ago
In what way?
> It became algebra when I introduced an unknown variable and wrote down an equation.
But a lot of people, including me, can solve it without writing down any equation.
> I can't see a way to solve the problem without doing that.
Ah. So it's gibberish because of your limitations? That's... not how this usually works. (Although, to be fair, it's often the case that people of limited intellectual means lash out with unkind comments such as "gibberish" so maybe this is how it works.)
> How did you get this equation from the problem statement?
"Mary is 24 years old. She is twice as old as Ann was when Mary was as old as Ann is now. How old is Ann?"
We know that there is a delta between Mary's current age (24) and what I called X in my previous comment (Ann's current age AKA Mary's prior age). That would be 24 - X.
We also know that at some previous time, Ann was 12 (half of 24) when Mary was (Ann's current age AKA Mary's prior age).
Some of us just take the mental shortcut that the in between age has to be the average of 24 and 12 (because the delta doesn't change[1], so the delta must have been the same before as it is now), but if forced to write it down into algebra, we can say that this second statement is X - 12.
And then of course, again, because the delta doesn't change, and the delta is equal to both x-12 and 24-x, those expressions must be equal to each other.
[1] Except of course, the delta could wobble a bit for birthdays being on different dates within the year. In simple puzzles like this, of course, that +/- 1 year possibility is usually ignored.
Comment by tempfile 3 days ago
I think what you suggest works! Putting it in the wording of my original comment: Mary IS 24, Ann WAS 12, and the same amount of time gets you from 12 to Ann's current age, and from Ann's current age to 24. I think it is obvious from there that you're half-way between, so Ann is 18. Thank you!
The part of your earlier comment I consider gibberish has nothing to do with the problem.
> It's slightly different, because you've supercharged your hammer.
This does not mean anything.
> Everything you ever understood about how to solve word problems has been subsumed into what your brain labels as "algebra."
This is bizarre speculation. Why are you analyzing my brain? I just asked for an explanation!
> Did you use algebra to convert the problem to algebraic form?
As you say, this is impossible to do, because it doesn't make sense. So why bring it up? It sounds like you are trying to convince me the problem is not algebra - or that I am in some way only seeing it as algebra because I am not thinking about the problem clearly. But I never said it was! I just said I can't see how to do it without algebra. Since you mixed those things up, I clarified by saying exactly what sense I was talking about algebra in the first place. Clearly that didn't work!
Again, thank you for explaining your reasoning, I appreciate it. Just leave out the analysis of my mind!
Comment by zephen 3 days ago
> Just leave out the analysis of my mind!
I should have added weasel words like "maybe" and "probably" because I don't know you. Yet, everything I wrote, I have observed numerous times in other people.
And (and of course, maybe I'm wrong here) if you hadn't learned algebra, this solution would have been more obvious to you. Obviously we can't run that experiment directly. But think back to your childhood. Did you ever intuitively know the answer to a problem that others struggled with? Does that happen as often lately?
Formal methods like algebra are powerful and allow us to document, step by step, transformations that would be impossible to hold in our heads informally. We can solve problems that were unapproachable before. But we can get so used to using them that we forget intuitive tricks that we used to use.
Maybe this didn't happen to you. You're right. I don't know you. I'm only extrapolating. It really is the sort of simple problem that many people (possibly most of them younger) can solve immediately without assigning variable names or even writing anything down.
If this describes your capabilities when you were younger, then something changed. What is it?
Let me give you an example of my own. When I was a child I would play around with electronics. I intuitively knew that if I put two resistors in parallel, the amount of resistance would go down, and by how much, and could easily extend that to 3 or 4 resistors, rummaging through my collection to find resistors that would parallel to give me the value I wanted.
Once I learned the parallel resistor formula, I got slower at everything above two resistors.
Which brings us to:
> As you say, [using algebra to convert the problem to algebraic form] is impossible to do, because it doesn't make sense. So why bring it up?
I brought it up because, although we agree that it is not strictly part of algebra, it is something that you had to learn in order to use algebra effectively.
To me (and of course, again, I'm still speculating here) the fact that you're smart enough to use intuitive methods to set the problem up in algebraic form means that you were probably smart enough to use intuitive methods to simply solve the problem directly, if you weren't so used to directing your brain activity towards doing things using algebra.
Comment by skipants 4 days ago
Comment by zephen 4 days ago
Look, when someone says "you need algebra to solve this" is it reasonable to assume that they are talking about informal methods that people have used forever, or is it more reasonable to assume they are talking about formal algebraic methods?
Because many people sure as shit don't need any algebraic symbols or operators to solve this in their heads.
Comment by lordgrenville 4 days ago
Comment by swiftcoder 4 days ago
Are you in the 8th grade? Those of us a couple of decades past the 8th grade are maybe slower at algebra than someone who is actively drilling it...
Comment by n6242 4 days ago
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Comment by quuxplusone 4 days ago
The whole point of this kind of meme is for the populace to perform disagreement about the answer! (See also: the Monty Hall problem; sports; comments sections.)
[1] - https://www.loc.gov/resource/sn83030193/1903-11-11/ed-1/?sp=...
[2] - https://quuxplusone.github.io/blog/2019/08/01/what-is-8-divi...
Comment by anigbrowl 3 days ago
The key insight here is to remember that time moves the same for both Mary and Ann. Let's call the number of years between past and present X. Then
24 - X = 12 + X => 24 - 12 = 2X => X = 6.
Comment by simonreiff 4 days ago
Let M_n := Mary's age now = 24, A_n := Ann's age now, and let M_p, A_p be the ages of Mary and Ann at a certain point in the past. We have that M_n = 24 = 2(A_p) from "Mary is 24 years old. She is twice as old as Ann was", immediately implying that A_p = 12. At the point in time p when M_p, A_p were the ages of Mary and Ann, respectively, we have that M_p = A_n from "when Mary was as old as Ann is now". Also, let x := | M_n - M_p | = | A_n - A_p | be the amount of time that has passed between the point p in time and now. Since M_n > M_p and A_n > A_p by construction, we can drop absolute values, yielding M_n = M_p + x, A_n = A_p + x. Substituting, we have M_p = 24 - x, and A_n = 12 + x, yielding x = 24 - M_p = A_n - 12, yielding A_n = 36 - M_p. But, since M_p = A_n, we can write 2(A_n) = 36 yielding A_n = 18.
This problem, however, completely ignores the fact that Ann boarded an interstellar spaceship 6 years ago at a reasonable fraction of the speed of light c. To account for this missing detail, we need to use Lorentz factors. Since Ann was the one traveling in space, we have to adjust her current age by calculating A_n = A_p + x * sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2)), where v is Ann's velocity Given that the problem is missing the critical detail of how fast Ann is hurtling towards the outer boundary of the universe, we really can't calculate their age at all. Nonetheless, given the completely reasonable and plausible assumption that Ann has been traveling at 95% of the speed of light because spaceships totally can do that, Ann is obviously about 13.87 years old. So 18 years old is clearly the wrong answer.
Note that the fact that Ann is not aging as much due to traveling at an enormous velocity does NOT change Mary's age. Mary remains exactly twice as old as Ann was at the given point in the past, so she's 24 and 6 years have passed from her perspective. Only Ann's age changes. Obviously.
Comment by skipants 4 days ago
x: Ann's current age
y: The age difference between Ann and Mary
24 = x + y (ie. their current ages)
x = (24/2) + y (ie. their age in the past)
Solve for y in one equation and plug it into the other. You'll get x = 18.Comment by xeyownt 4 days ago
Now : Mary is 24 = 2y, Ann is x
Past: Mary is x, Ann is 12 = y
Moreover, we have x + delta = 24, and 12 + delta = x (they get older at same rate), so delta = 6 and x = 18.Comment by Hackbraten 4 days ago
I love this response so much.
Comment by pkasting 3 days ago
> A man is twice the age his wife was when he was the age she is now. When she reaches his present age, their combined years will be 100. Find the age of each.
This seemed initially like something amenable to guessing and checking a few ratios. <narrator voice>It was not.</narrator voice>
My answer: The man is 44 4/9 years old, the wife 33 1/3 years.
Comment by Suppafly 3 days ago
Comment by buzzm 4 days ago
perl -e '$_=24;print+(y///c,$m=$_)&&$_*3/4 .$/'
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Comment by Garlef 4 days ago
There's two point in time with two ages each:
M, M0, and A, A0
Then the sentence can be expressed as:
* M = M0 + X and A = A0 + X and (X is the time difference)
* M = 24 and ("Mary is 24")
* M = 2 * A0 and ("Mary is twice as old as Ann was")
* M0 = A ("Mary was as old as Ann is now")
Comment by lrobinovitch 3 days ago
MO (mary old), MN (mary now), AO (ann old), AN (ann now)
MN = 24
MO = AN
2AO = MN
MN - AN = MO - AO
Comment by OvidStavrica 3 days ago
This discussion itself offers insight on the actual need for technical professionals to be able to logically reason through non-obvious [information] structures.
I've anecdotally suspected that the ability to synthesize information into a navigable data structure and subsequently analyze it, both from internal and external POV, is not a hard requirement for the majority SWE positions.
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[1] - https://www.loc.gov/resource/sn88085488/1903-10-31/ed-1/?sp=...
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Comment by Cockbrand 4 days ago
How I understand it:
Mary is 24, Ann is a few (n) years younger
M = 24
A = M-n
Mary is twice as old as Ann was when Mary was as old as Ann is now. So we have to deduct the age difference twice from Mary's current age to find out how old Ann was when Mary was as old as Ann is now, which is half Mary's current age: M-2n = M/2 = 12
M-2n = 12 --> n=6
So the age difference is 6, and Ann is 18.Comment by lukewarm707 4 days ago
ann_old=12
mary_curr=24
mary_old=ann_curr
mary_curr-ann_curr=X
mary_old-ann_old=X
24-ann_curr=X
mary_old-12=X
ann_curr-12=X
24-ann_curr=ann_curr-12
2ann_curr -12 = 24
2ann_curr = 36
ann_curr = 18
Comment by brazzy 4 days ago
mary_curr - mary_old = ann_curr - ann_old
since they must have aged the same amount of years.
time dilation joke incoming
Comment by zephen 4 days ago
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