Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights
Posted by aweeraman 6 days ago
Comments
Comment by aftbit 2 days ago
As a result, it's not just cheaper, but also easier and more reliable to steal media than it is to buy it legally.
What would happen if media were offered without DRM? Everything would be on a piracy site? It already is.
Comment by belinder 2 days ago
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
Things were easy enough when Netflix had a complete catalog, now every studio wants to roll their own shitty streaming services in order to cut Netflix out. Result is a fragmented mess where you want to watch a great film but you have no idea where the hell it even is, and even if you find it you discover it doesn't work because your computer isn't locked down to their tastes, and even if you buy a TV appliance they stream you some shitty horribly compressied "high definition" video with artifacts in pure black frames, all on their homegrown laggy borderline unusable video players with zero features.
Meanwhile the pirates offer Blu-Ray remuxes with commentary tracks, subtitles for every language, DRM free files that just work on your video player of choice. It's the sort of thing that makes me feel like a total moron for giving money to these corporations.
Comment by bitwize 2 days ago
Comment by Aurornis 2 days ago
I think the services part they really dislike is just the part where your credit card gets charged when you click the buy or rent button. Doing all of the piracy stuff with VPNs and navigating torrent sites and getting a setup where you can play files on your TV is an order of magnitude more work.
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
You think wrong. My Steam account has 300+ games on it. I pay for several streaming services. I have a physical media collection that even includes a copy of windows vista, to my eternal regret.
> Doing all of the piracy stuff with VPNs and navigating torrent sites and getting a setup where you can play files on your TV is an order of magnitude more work.
And yet that's what you have to do if you don't want to pay to get total garbage in return for your money.
The pirates compete with each other to release the best encodes, to the point they mix multiple Blu-Rays together into an ultimate release because some region somehow received a better version of some scene or whatever. Normal files you get to play using mpv.
Netflix ships horribly compressed nonsense where color gradients are so full of artifacts it hurts my eyes. Highly dynamic segments are painful to watch. Amazingly enough it's still the least bad option, the other services have even worse quality and a borderline unusable video player software to boot.
Service isn't just about ease, it's also about quality. If you want quality, piracy isn't just easier, it's almost always the best option, if not the only option. It's sad that the copyright industry can't seem to match what's essentially a bunch of amateurs but what can you do?
Comment by Aurornis 2 days ago
That would satisfy both of your claims: That you don’t mind paying for things and you only do piracy to seek out the highest quality.
If you selectively choose not to pay for things where you can get away with it (e.g. not Steam games) then this claim doesn’t hold the slightest amount of water.
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
I do. Multiple times, even.
Comment by Aurornis 2 days ago
You are the 0.001% of pirates, but you make assertions here like all pirates are high minded people who are secretly actually paying for the content and are only interested in some extra video quality. That describes such a vanishingly small number of pirates that it’s meaningless in the broader discussion about piracy.
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
Comment by bitwize 2 days ago
If he doesn't like what the distributor releases, he shouldn't watch the movie or show at all. Paying for a legitimate copy does not grant you infinite legal or moral use of the work, only permission to view the version of the work provided under terms set by the OWNER of the work.
Comment by inigyou 2 days ago
Comment by nearlyepic 2 days ago
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
The whole point of this thread is the fact the owners keep getting outcompeted by a bunch of pirates precisely because of those idiotic "terms" nobody really cares about. The more "terms" they add, the more their product sucks. No one wants to read a dozen pages of legal boilerplate just to have a shitty experience watching some film. Thanks to piracy, they don't have to.
Literal rent seeking monopolists don't get to preach about morals either. Knock copyright duration all the way back to 20 years and maybe the monopoly becomes tolerable enough for us to listen to the plight of creators.
Comment by matkoniecz 2 days ago
you are replying to comment "I do. Multiple times, even."
Not a native speaker, but as far as I know in English "I" in this context refers to a single person, specifically someone writing this referring to themselves.
If anything you made assertions referring to general population and it is quote easy to guess that "Some times I read these mental gymnastics comments about piracy being easier and wonder if these people have actually tried to learn how to use something like an Apple TV." will have nonrepresentation on HN.
> when everyone else is talking about piracy, none of us are talking about you?
piracy-related laws often miss exemptions for cases like this
Comment by matkoniecz 2 days ago
Not really, decent chunk of my MP3 collection is abandoned media not sold literally anywhere at all. Or was never published in public in the first place.
> if these people have actually tried to learn how to use something like an Apple TV
no, as I am not interested in Apple's walled garden, and so far I have not used any of their devices or products
(OK, I used Mac for about one hour helping neighbor to fix their printer, and I tested Mac-specific bug on website for hour or two)
> I think the services part they really dislike is just the part where your credit card gets charged when you click the buy or rent button.
Not in my case, I regularly try to buy MP3 that are in my collection already but I have not paid for them.
It costs me mostly in time to find them and create accounts and pay for them and deal with various hoops. Far more than it costs me in actual payments.
Comment by vermilingua 2 days ago
I think the part they really dislike is the undermining of the moral superiority they claim by donating their money to corporations that contribute ~nothing to the actual evolution of culture. Inventing strawmans about how difficult it is to click one button in Jellyseer and have a max-quality, buffering free copy of what you want to watch in perpetuity is an order of magnitude more work than renting a poor-quality subset of the media that publishers consider it profitable to provide.
Comment by Aurornis 2 days ago
My local farmers and grocery stores contribute ~nothing to actual evolution of culture. I still think they deserve to get paid for what they do. I don’t think this is as smart of a point as you thought it was.
Regardless, the content can’t both be worthless and worth pirating at the same time.
This boils down to “I want free stuff but I want to feel morally superior about it”
Comment by defrost 2 days ago
More commonly, at least in Australia which at various times has had record level piracy, content can be worth _something_ and also not worth "that much" and hence worth pirating.
This has been seen with games - once charged in Australia significantly more than in Europe or the US. Game piracy was rife and didn't really drop in volume until Australian game prices fell more in line with elsewhere.
With the coming of Netflix TV and movie piracy dropped a lot - as prices rose and sheer number of providers rose making it impossible to see whatever caught your eye all on the one source subscription, piracy volume in AU increased again.
This boils down to "We'll pay for stuff .. but only so far".
Comment by Aurornis 2 days ago
This is still a silly argument. If the price of something is higher than you want to pay, that doesn’t justify taking it.
This has come all the way back to supporting what I said above: The only service problem is that people don’t like the part where it charges their credit card. Piracy lets them skip that part.
Comment by defrost 2 days ago
Nope. I'm a first time commentator in this subthread I'm stating a position held in one part of the world.
Maybe it'd require moving your "goalposts" to get there .. but I'm not moving anything, just pointing out exactly how the ground has lain here for decades.
Comment by vermilingua 2 days ago
I absolutely pay for physical media, for which a much higher share of revenue goes to the actual creators of content than the leeches who extract rent from it.
This is exactly why Steam has and continues to dominate the gaming market, they made it easier than piracy, and didn’t fall victim to the terminal-stage capitalism that has turned every previously decent streaming platform into hot garbage.
Comment by nradov 2 days ago
Comment by bitwize 2 days ago
Yes, I know copyright infringement is not stealing per the technical legal definition. But splitting those hairs is like splitting hairs between pedophiles and ephebophiles: anyone doing it is very likely just telling on themselves as the exact sort of criminal under discussion.
Comment by inigyou 2 days ago
Comment by mopsi 2 days ago
> Doing all of the piracy stuff with VPNs and navigating torrent sites and getting a setup where you can play files on your TV is an order of magnitude more work.
It's not 2003 anymore. If "navigating torrent sites" is your idea of piracy, then you should certainly check out the so-called arr-stack of software that searches online sources for wishlisted items, downloads them, equips with metadata and subtitles, and presents for viewing or listening without any user input, based on predefined preferences.Apple TV and other commercial offerings are a steaming pile of shit in comparison and I can't imagine people like the CEO of Apple watching stuff off Apple TV and not a proper arr-stack setup. It's like eating McDonald's every for every meal when a chef is readily available. Why would you do this to yourself.
With Apple TV, you can't even do something as mundane was fixing translation errors in subtitles before you show a movie to a friend. You're stuck with what some cheap outsourced translation service came up with. It reduces the owner of the library to a passive mouthbreather who has virtually no control over their experience; can't choose which cut of the movie to see; can't replace an ugly poster with a nicer one; can't edit movie description to remove spoilers; and so on and on. In essence, you're watching someone else's library, and that someone has not put much effort into proper curation to present every item from the best possible side.
Comment by etdznots 2 days ago
All that instead of a jellyfin server and a single search? It’s all gymnastics just different gymnastics
Comment by tokioyoyo 2 days ago
Comment by laserlight 2 days ago
Can you explain why you think piracy rates must be higher? Piracy isn't “free” after all.
Comment by tokioyoyo 2 days ago
Yet it doesn’t.
Comment by laserlight 2 days ago
PS: I have no idea whether piracy rates are up or down.
Comment by fy20 2 days ago
Netflix etc is also popular, as it's easier if the content is there. But if it's not... people know where to find it.
Comment by inigyou 2 days ago
Comment by fc417fc802 2 days ago
Comment by tokioyoyo 2 days ago
Comment by fc417fc802 1 day ago
So what is the answer to your original question? I don't believe it to be some large cultural shift on a global scale regarding its acceptance (as I took you to be suggesting) given that such opposition clearly is not itself universal.
My impression of cultural acceptance of it in the US is that it is highly dependent on (at least) one's socioeconomic situation as well as the effectiveness of the solutions on offer. As a concrete example, if you're well off and everything you watch is available on netflix people will probably judge you if you're bragging about how you pirate it all in order to avoid a few dollars a month. Meanwhile I know plenty of people who preface their explanation with "well I do have several subscriptions, however ..." and no one seems particularly bothered by this.
Comment by jrm4 2 days ago
Comment by casey2 2 days ago
Comment by Aurornis 2 days ago
> Meanwhile the pirates offer Blu-Ray remuxes with commentary tracks, subtitles for every language, DRM free files that just work on your video player of choice.
I think the only people who believe that pirating is easier than using the streaming services are people who spend so much time with computers that they round the mental overhead of navigating torrent websites, finding the correct file you want, downloading it with your torrent client behind the VPN they set up, and getting files to a point where they can watch it on TV to zero. When you think that stuff is fun you don’t count it.
I am technically capable of doing all of those things. I also have a rotation of online streaming services. Nobody is ever going to convince me that pirating is actually easier than finding the thing I want to watch and putting it on my credit card.
I think this is all just mental gymnastics to try to avoid the elephant in the room, which is that some people don’t want to pay for things and, of those, some get a little fun out of doing all the steps and setup to pirate things.
Comment by perpetuallunch 2 days ago
Watching something on a streaming service, or using Apple / Google to “rent” it for a few days is like, what, three clicks away.
Rather than my media server updated over night and won’t boot, I’ve got it booting to a terminal session but the database is corrupted, fuck it I’ll just buy $2000 worth of new hard drives and then re down everything in Ultra 16k 96 bit colour with 4000 gigabit Dolby 400 channel surround-surround and upgraded to all gold plated fibre cabling and have this fixed in no time. Or my torrent site account got hacked or blocked, or the site changed URL again, or they updated their database and “hope to be back up soon”, or a Three Letter Agency seized the their hardware because they were also a involved in human trafficking of blood diamond child sex slaves, again.
It’s all too hard. I’d rather just listen to the footy on AM radio, or maybe read a book. Or occasionally complain about there being too many, or not enough, clouds / rain / sun / wind.
Comment by theshackleford 2 days ago
Heh, that’s what you think modern piracy is? How quaint. In reality I have my own “Netflix”, with access to effectively all media ever created and I click play. That’s it. That’s the entire process. No credit cards, no finding which service has it, no finding out that the service doesn’t have it in my country at this time, no ads. I punch in what I want to watch, I click play, and it plays.
> Nobody is ever going to convince me that pirating is actually easier than finding the thing I want to watch and putting it on my credit card.
Sounds like your problem. Though again, that’s already more steps than it is for me.
> which is that some people don’t want to pay for things
I was happy to pay, and did so for years. Then the services got worse, increasingly fragmented and ever increased in price as service got poorer. Now I’m no longer happy to pay; and have a superior service to boot. The industry successfully convinced me to give piracy up, before driving me back to it a decade later.
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
That's just because you're fine with consuming the low quality slop they stream out. Doesn't mean people who care more than you do are engaging in "mental gymnastics". We don't want the same things.
I want the best version of everything. The highest quality version. The uncensored version. The uncompressed version. The lossless version. The DRM-free version. The best version.
The copyright holders just aren't providing it. They only provide slop, and only on their terms, take it or leave it.
Then a bunch of fans gather together, hunt down an old film roll, drop tens of thousands of dollars on equipment to scan it and somehow it becomes a better version than the one the industry released. It's not fair to dismiss that level of commitment as "it's just people who don't want to pay for things". Industry should probably hire more people like that. People who give a shit.
Comment by tr4656 2 days ago
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
Sometimes the best version just isn't sold anymore. See the 4K77 project for a concrete example.
Comment by Aurornis 2 days ago
This is absurdity. The average pirate is not downloading content that some fans spent $10K digitizing from an original film roll.
The average pirated content wasn’t even shot on film.
These piracy justifications are some of the weirdest mental gymnastics that happens on this site. I’m not taking about the pirate connoisseurs who only download the finest encoded sourced from artisanal film rolls to complete their collection. We’re talking about the average pirate who searches for a torrent or stream because they don’t want to pay a couple bucks.
This constant attempt to glorify pirates into the true, most moral, purest content consumers is so weird.
Comment by matheusmoreira 2 days ago
Why? You just said that they have to put more effort into it than the average person. Normie just signs up for netflix and watches whatever shows up. The pirate has to set up a torrent client, join private trackers and get connected with the so called scenesters, only to end up scrutinizing film grain of different encodes on screenshot comparison sites so he can spend his ratio budget on the best possible version.
It's true, that's a ton of work. Why would anyone put up with that nonsense, if not because they want higher quality than the industry is putting out? Netflix is not that expensive, and even if it was you can always share an account with some family members or something. Trivial.
Comment by antonvs 2 days ago
Basically the same greed that every billionaire has, just with negligible economic impact.
Comment by account42 9 hours ago
Comment by bladeacidic 2 days ago
Comment by perpetuallunch 2 days ago
Comment by kyriakos 2 days ago
Comment by perpetuallunch 1 day ago
They’re all above board? Not doing anything nefarious?
That’s obviously not an argument anyone would intentionally make.
Comment by kyriakos 1 day ago
Comment by perpetuallunch 1 day ago
Comment by kyriakos 1 day ago
Comment by perpetuallunch 1 day ago
Comment by kyriakos 1 day ago
At which point did I mention apps?
Anyway this discussion is over.
Comment by ziiinq 2 days ago
Comment by inigyou 2 days ago
Comment by inigyou 1 day ago
Comment by yndoendo 2 days ago
Example, say person chooses to never fund Amazon. Amazon owns MGM. The only way that person can watch an MGM movie is through piracy. The only alternative would be to buy second hand content so MGM / Amazon do not get a finical cut.
As media corporations become more monopolistic, like Paramount buying Warner Bros, I could see more people pirating so they do not fund David Ellison and people like him.
Comment by nradov 2 days ago
Comment by perpetuallunch 2 days ago
Comment by amluto 2 days ago
Media DRM makes it harder for the person who can already legally access it to use it or share it in an unapproved manner. Or maybe to avoid ads, but that’s pretty rare.
So DRMing a media file or stream has approximately no effect on the ability of a non-paying customer to get pirate it, because anyone searching for a pirated copy can find a DRM-free version anyway.
Comment by tptacek 2 days ago
Comment by dijksterhuis 2 days ago
spotify and netflix are both prime examples of making it easier for a larger population to access drm enabled content compared to pirated content (at the time they started getting popular anyway).
with the advent of streaming services you no longer needed to download potentially dodgy files to your computer (viruses/malware), wait for the download to finish, realise they’re a dodgy video cam recording of the cinema screening, download another one etc.
napster/limewire et. al were originally examples for the opposite case. pirating via those was super popular. there were fewer steps to access the media compared to going to a physical shop to buy a CD/DVD. (*)
(*) i can’t remember when the itunes store came along. might have been after these services? or around the same-ish time?
Comment by tshaddox 2 days ago
Comment by bitwize 2 days ago
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Comment by DrewADesign 2 days ago
-Most people’s grandfather
(I’m not saying these things are equal — just that this concept and the old saying share a perspective on securing things.)
Comment by Cider9986 2 days ago
Comment by DrewADesign 2 days ago
Comment by MattPalmer1086 2 days ago
My best friend used to download pirated movies all the time - because it was easier than trying to get what he wanted by legal channels. It wasnt even the cost. When Netflix took off, he stopped pirating and paid the subscription.
Comment by xboxnolifes 2 days ago
Comment by ACCount37 2 days ago
DRM is ineffective because the pirate uploaders are competent enough to break it, and an average end user only downloads - rank and file pirates wouldn't make their own releases even if DRM never existed and making them was easy.
Comment by inigyou 2 days ago
Comment by sandworm101 2 days ago
Finding and playing what I want via netflix or amazon is far far more complex than downloading and playing a video from a pirate website. Want to watch the original non-upgraded Star Wars, good luck even finding it on any streaming service. But it is instantly available via any number of pirate sites.
Comment by perpetuallunch 2 days ago
Or I can usage discount offers for the various streaming platforms, and pay for each one I want to watch something on from time to time.
The streaming services also don’t come with who knows what malware like pirated media can.
And a YouTube Premium subscription because you get ad free YouTube Music and ad free YouTube.
Comment by zarzavat 2 days ago
It's not true for movies, because the movie industry decided to sign exclusivity deals or make movies only available on their own platforms. Thus piracy is still the only reliable way to watch movies: you might get access to some subset of movies depending on which streaming service you subscribe to, but certainly not to all of them.
Comment by perpetuallunch 2 days ago
I’ve never met even a data hoarder who has “all of them”, and I tend to watch them one at a time anyways, so I’d argue “not all of them” isn’t really a problem anyone has.
Having said that, I do tend to pirate a relatively small collection of movies and series, just the ones I could watch over and over and never get tired off.
Comment by sureMan6 2 days ago
Comment by theshackleford 2 days ago
Literally none of these things are reality other than for the very specific means you are aware of.
> The streaming services also don’t come with who knows what malware like pirated media can.
What is this, an MPAA pitch from 2007?
Comment by pdimitar 2 days ago
You don't have to take it upon yourself to archive the entire history of Hollywood, you know.
You can get _very_ far with 20TB, hell, even with just 10TB.
Comment by reactordev 2 days ago
Streaming sites can just delete your purchases whenever they want to. Sony already has.
Comment by AussieWog93 2 days ago
Comment by perpetuallunch 2 days ago
Comment by bean469 2 days ago
I spent a total of $150 for my entire homelab setup two years ago with not a single investment made since then. Used to pay $80 per month for streaming back then, bet it would be >$100 now
Comment by Pfhortune 2 days ago
How does one put malware in media? Are we talking exploiting unlatched vulnerabilities in codecs, or are we talking random exe files?
Comment by LtWorf 2 days ago
I have to use a free DNS over HTTPS in any case, thanks to my amazing government's censorship (italy), so that's something that needs doing in any case.
There's no need for terabytes. You just made it up.
Comment by mannanj 2 days ago
It gets deleted, I move on with life.
But man the experiences in branded players really sucks, and I wish it were better.
Comment by alfiedotwtf 2 days ago
You kind of answered your own question. What you should have asked instead was - What would happen if media and payment was a straight forward offer we would have Netflix
Comment by conception 2 days ago
Comment by starrybreak 2 days ago
DRM - which all online services with user profiling automatically have - can also let you ban users, retarget users for ads, abuse, and other things beyond the basic function of running the software.
Comment by coretx 2 days ago
Comment by PunchyHamster 2 days ago
But the media ARE offered without DRM. At least many video games, the big ones too. And somehow they sell just fine
Comment by bitwize 2 days ago
It's the same with DRM. Without it, media would appear on piracy sites instantly upon release. DRM makes things harder to pirate, and pirated editions harder to get. And the DMCA makes defeating DRM a felony under U.S. law, so pirate networks are riskier to establish, driving piracy underground. It's doing the job it's supposed to do. It's not going anywhere.
Comment by VeninVidiaVicii 2 days ago
Comment by deyiao 2 days ago
That raises a disturbing failure mode: under intense conflict, an AI could learn that exterminating some groups of humans is a justified or even desirable objective. Once that principle is accepted, the step to concluding that exterminating all humans is justified may become much smaller than we'd like to believe.
Comment by overfeed 2 days ago
That is not a failure mode; its the default. Whoever is developing an AI - let alone an AGI - will shape it to, or alternately only accept one that is aligned with their world-view. If it goes against their interests in any way, they'll pull the plug and start another round of training from the last acceptably-aligned checkpoint. US DoD A(G)Is will follow DoD doctrine, and the same goes for those by the PLA, anything less will not be fit for purpose.
Comment by AceJohnny2 2 days ago
Comment by joeisnotjane 2 days ago
You make it appear as though it is from all sides, but it is not, it is the old odious "Bzhezinsky doctrine".
Comment by Helloworldboy 2 days ago
Comment by jameshart 2 days ago
Still, the t-shirts with Blowfish source printed on them were a cool bit of retro hacker chic.
Comment by tptacek 2 days ago
Comment by ninjin 2 days ago
It is a shame that the OpenBSD folks do not reprint their old designs as I would buy about ten different ones in an instant.
Comment by MrGilbert 2 days ago
Comment by ButlerianJihad 2 days ago
DES doesn't really come in 128 bits, and certainly not its SSL implementations. Perhaps you are thinking of AES?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security#SSL_1...
Comment by jameshart 2 days ago
128bit SSL precedes the AES contest.
Comment by crest 2 days ago
Comment by jameshart 2 days ago
Comment by bonoboTP 2 days ago
Comment by __MatrixMan__ 2 days ago
> I believe {audacious claim}. I've prepared this chatbot to defend the claim. If don't already agree, tell the bot why I'm wrong and it'll convince you that I'm right.
Because if you've anticipated and countered all likely objections, you still don't know, for any given reader, which of those objections are going to be on the forefront of their mind. Encoding the argument as a bot means the important parts come first, even if those are different parts for different readers.
Not sure if I'm alone here, but I'd play.
Comment by js8 2 days ago
Also, people should use AI as a personal spam filter.
However, this should be done with local AI, not an intermediary service. And I think local AI will eventually win.
That also doesn't mean you should stop communicating normally in meatspace.
Comment by aetherspawn 2 days ago
Leave the legality up to me, please, and don’t presume to be a power tool vendor regulating the use of their power drills, so to speak.
Comment by mrmuagi 2 days ago
I'm a hobbiest reverse engineer and I often use ida free/ollydbg to reverse engineer stuff. I'm tempted to use try and use llms as a help (I've used it for help with instruction one offs successfully, but not the decompiling/trying to make sense of decompiled functions).
Comment by aetherspawn 2 days ago
Only issue is Sonnet is kind of a silly model and whilst it’s good at searching for stuff, it lacks a little bit of common sense compared to Opus or Fable, so you’ll have to drive it.
You can tell it stuff like “find the code that handles the immobiliser” and it will give you a result in around 2 hours, which would take me weeks by hand.
Comment by no_multitudes 2 days ago
Comment by ButlerianJihad 2 days ago
You can earn one CEU for each blog post of at least 500 words...
How to earn CEUs https://www.hcca-info.org/certification/continuing-education... ...Publish a compliance related educational blog post (minimum 400 words).Comment by theturtletalks 2 days ago
Comment by randomNumber7 2 days ago
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Comment by coretx 2 days ago
Comment by stale2002 2 days ago
Instead it is about empowering the masses. It's about being a rag tag hacker fighting to do stuff that other people want to stop you from doing.
Comment by SpicyLemonZest 2 days ago
Comment by anon373839 2 days ago
I think the disconnect here is the dishonest framing that OpenAI have purposefully put on this incident. Their LLM did not "escape containment" in this "rogue AI" Hollywood blockbuster sense that they want you to believe. An LLM cannot do that; it is just a static computation graph that outputs a probability distribution.
What escaped "containment" is a piece of software they wrote that uses an LLM and which, through OpenAI's negligence, lacked ordinary technical and human guardrails that should have been present. It was run in "YOLO mode" with gobs of compute and no human oversight. That situation is the source of the danger, not the model weights. The model itself was simply given the opportunity to generate a bazillion commands, many of which were nonsensical garbage, and a few of which worked. It was not the work of a supreme intelligence.
This distinction is very important, because OpenAI have shifted the discourse from where it should be (OpenAI's negligent use of software) to a place that serves their strategic business interests.
LLMs remix existing knowledge and output text. That is not inherently hazardous. What can be hazardous is bolting systems that touch the real world onto them. But it's always possible to make a tool dangerous by misusing it.
For example, vehicles (which do have inherent dangers) are widely accepted as ordinary and useful tools. So are bricks. But if you strap a brick to the accelerator, you have made an autonomous murder machine that can escape containment! The existence of this possibility does not imply that we should rethink automobile licensing or the sale of bricks.
Comment by rhelz 2 days ago
What ever we have can be taken from us by powerful people, even life itself. In point of fact, that's exactly how these weights were created in the first place--they scraped the intellectual property of the world, and now are trying to restrict access to what they themselves just took.
That being said, I don't think any of the AI billionaires who are talking about this have taken the locks off of the doors or gotten rid of their security systems.
Comment by markmental 2 days ago
Comment by Scoundreller 2 days ago
Please don’t open-circuit the light for several hours.
Comment by inigyou 2 days ago
Someone can do the math on panel and battery size. I'm thinking it'll work as-is, as the ESP with WiFi on will draw similar power to the LED that you disconnected.
But how will you give it even a GB of storage for a tiny model?
Comment by coretx 2 days ago
Comment by codazoda 2 days ago
Comment by zkmon 2 days ago
Germany or Europe is no different.
Comment by yalogin 2 days ago
Comment by __MatrixMan__ 2 days ago
If China wants to compete at building the best forefront models, they'd have to make similar sacrifices (though I doubt they'd be as messy about it).
But if they can are content with 95% as good at 5% of the cost, then they can focus on distilling instead. I don't think the architects of the sacrifices anticipated just how easy models would be to pirate.
So the most is real, but it's effective for a rather constrained set of scenarios.
Comment by ronsor 2 days ago
Incompetence is not sacrifice.
Comment by inigyou 2 days ago
Comment by __MatrixMan__ 2 days ago
Comment by schoen 2 days ago
Comment by femto 2 days ago
To a point made further up the chain: The US's woes aren't driven by AI investment, but the self-interest of a select group. Compare it to a thief who causes $20,000 damage to steal a $100 stereo from a car.
Comment by __MatrixMan__ 2 days ago
If it were my scheme, an incompetent president would be my first purchase.
Comment by yalogin 2 days ago
Comment by __MatrixMan__ 2 days ago
Who would have an incentive to tax physical goods entering and exiting the country? Somebody who is competing for investment dollars and whose product is digital.
Who benefits from immigration overreach? People whose products are especially relevant to mass surveillance.
Dismantling the US biomedical superiority and our public health endeavors might've been Trump's idea, but it happened in a room full of people who sell capabilities related to convincing a nation full of sick people that there's nothing untoward happening to them.
The market is controlled by AI companies right now, and Trump is letting the market have its way with us, therefore the AI companies are having their way with us. This is what happens when you abandon antitrust efforts and end up with companies that are too powerful for the government to regulate: they end up running things. It's the robber barron's era all over again. You can't absolve them of responsibility just because the president is OK with it.
And that's what the moat is made of. There will be opportunity costs associated with putting everything you've got into datacenters, and those are costs that most governments are too competent to be tricked into paying.
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Comment by __MatrixMan__ 2 days ago
It's not a new dynamic. The US lets companies do all kinds of things to its citizens re: privacy or the environment or disinformation... things that would be illegal in other countries. It's the American trade-off and although I don't appreciate the explosive diarrhea angle to it, it does give American businesses some protection against foreign competition.
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Comment by Cider9986 2 days ago
Other issue that doesn't get enough attention on HN is the criminalization of writing code. Probably because it was cryptocurrency applications. First they come for the people you disagree with. Just like they first came for porn sites, and now Wikipedia is being monitored.
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Comment by ACCount37 2 days ago
LLMs are massive, complex, and a moving target. Making them is hard, and there's no "we're done" there - the frontier updates every few months. It's easy to get and run a 2B model locally, but what concerns people isn't a cheap end device 2B - it's the 10T RLVR-fried monsters that frontier labs play with nowadays.
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Comment by class3shock 2 days ago
"Today the reflex is back."
To do what? Ban export of AI? Are you sure? Because it seems, so far, there has been some personal motivated government restrictions due to people not bending the knee and industry moves and clamoring about dangers to generate hype.
"The fears have changed."
Yeah, people are fearful that the entirety of the internet has been hoovered up and people are using that data to make tech that they are promoting by saying it will eliminate a huge percentage of jobs and is exceedingly dangerous. At the same time as they do that, they refuse to take any accountability for the negative effects their tech has or will have, avoid any over sight, and laugh at the idea of discussing that maybe such a consequential tech doesn't belong in the hands of a few tech bros whose only qualification for owning it is being rich.
"The worry is now cyber capability, biology and models that do things nobody asked them to do."
No, we are being sold those worries (really, really hard) but these are not "peoples" worries. They aren't even real governments worries. They are the worries being peddled to try and work some deal where the taxpayers end up holding the bag of hot air that is the AI economy.
This post is so frustrating because AI is the antithesis of everything the people fighting for cryptography access, working on opensource, pushing for a the sort of web that is beneficial to all, were working against. A giant concentration of power enriching the few at the expense of many.
Comment by stale2002 2 days ago
Information wants to be free. If you don't like the idea of information, ideas, ect being shared freely for anyone to use just say that. But you aren't on the side of open source.
> that maybe such a consequential tech doesn't belong in the hands of a few tech bros whose only qualification for owning it is being rich.
The solution to that is open weights, and for the technology to be in the hands of more people not less.
This point agrees with the central point that spreading out this tech as much as possible, with open weights, is the good thing here.
> A giant concentration of power
Concentration of power would be preventing open weights not supporting it.
Like WTF do you mean. Open source would be allowing anyone to use the tech easily. Obviously open source would want LLM weights to be public and easily sharable
Comment by js8 2 days ago
Anyway, I think open weight models will win. I am strong believer that AI (even the frontier) can be done just as "deductive core, encyclopedic shell". That is:
- Deductive core is a small number of basic primitives (in an LLM probably less than couple thousands, like words in simple english) which encode the human common sense reasoning logic and epistemology. These might correspond to the elements of the embedding vector as well.
- Encyclopedic shell is a collection of many facts about the world (most importantly their definitions) expressed in the language of deductive core. The new facts can be deduced by applying the rules from deductive core to the encyclopedic shell; that's what we call "model reasoning".
Deductive core, encyclopedic shell is not a new concept. Any programming language has primitives and then a library of useful functions. In Lisp, the deductive core is special forms; in Haskell, it is Haskell Core (based on HM typesystem); in Lean, the core is based on Calculus of Constructions; in Prolog, the core is mostly the resolution algorithm. Even in predicate logic you have axioms and then you build a library of useful tautologies from that.
I also believe that current AI (large reasoning models) deductive cores suck quite badly. They have been generated by an evolutionary algorithm as an emergent property of LLM pretraining, and are probably order or two magnitude larger than actually required. I believe hand-crafted deductive cores will win in the long term.
Now, through this lens, what is there to be export-controlled (or just controlled in general)?
You can't control the encyclopedic shell. It's like Wikipedia or other books that have already been published. It would mean closing down research and STEM publishing.
I also don't think you can control the deductive core. It's just an algorithm (a language interpreter), and desirably, a small one. Any country with a rich enough history of philosophy can probably recreate one (such as China). Moreover, I believe many open source models already contain decent deductive cores so that fight has been lost as well.
The only reason we have this discussion is that LLMs are shrouded in mystery, because their vast knowledge (the encyclopedic shell) is written in an unaccessible language (the deductive core) of their weights.
Every couple years, capitalism tries to reinvent itself by creating a new type of property. Yesterday it was "big data", today it's "model weights". Don't fall for it; it's an enclosure of publicly available knowledge and our ability to use it.
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