Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar
Posted by matthieu_bl 3 hours ago
Comments
Comment by bluepeter 2 hours ago
Comment by radpanda 1 hour ago
The random misspellings, missing spaces, sloppy grammar, etc in the examples in the article seem different to me. Misspelling "en route" as "enriewu" doesn't show, "look, I know the secret country club spelling for en route". It simply shows that you don't have to care about your mistakes. You write something that approximates what you mean, and you're too important to spend time revising. The mistake could be "enrout" or "n route" or on any other word. But you're not going to be a try-hard who edits and frets over their messages, you're blessing someone with 10 seconds of your attention and they're lucky to receive your correspondence, typos and all.
Comment by farisa_lives 28 minutes ago
And over years, sloppy typing (forgivable) evolves into sloppy thinking.
Comment by gabrielsroka 48 minutes ago
I see what you did there. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law
Comment by fractallyte 19 minutes ago
Comment by gosub100 9 minutes ago
Comment by loloquwowndueo 1 minute ago
Comment by AdamN 2 hours ago
Comment by woopwoop 1 hour ago
Comment by teachrdan 2 hours ago
Comment by jpfromlondon 2 hours ago
As to fillet and valet, they joined english before the contemporary french pronunciation, and are much closer to the middle-french.
Comment by rkomorn 1 hour ago
My favorite is probably crepe, which Americans pronounce like an almost diphthong-y craype (or crape like grape I guess) when crep (like step) would do just fine and be closer to the original.
But as a native French and basically-native American speaker, I also couldn't really care less about it, or about things like Americans pronouncing the t in croissant, or French people being unable to say the.
Comment by djeastm 1 hour ago
See also: Cairo, IL or Versailles, KY...
Comment by teachrdan 56 minutes ago
Comment by tigerlily 42 minutes ago
Comment by nobody9999 1 hour ago
Comment by teachrdan 57 minutes ago
Comment by hnuser123456 1 hour ago
Comment by bloak 2 hours ago
If there were just French words pronounced in a French way and English words which came from French and are now pronounced in an English way that would be bad enough but in fact we have a whole spectrum of bastardisation.
Comment by OJFord 44 minutes ago
It's not always that way though, consider 'niche': it's AmE that decided it's 'nitch'!
Comment by bluepeter 2 hours ago
Comment by mattmanser 1 hour ago
Fillet/valet are mis-pronounced because of mallet, pallet, etc. Renaissance? Nail, snail, tail, etc.
It really is that simple, we're just pronouncing them as if they were an English word.
Comment by FpUser 1 hour ago
Imaging me fresh from USSR asking someone how do I get to ... and getting blank stare
Comment by loloquwowndueo 28 seconds ago
Comment by bluepeter 1 hour ago
Comment by FpUser 52 minutes ago
Comment by b40d-48b2-979e 46 minutes ago
Comment by SoftTalker 48 minutes ago
Comment by stackghost 2 hours ago
This is a monstrous crime against language.
Comment by howlingfantods 2 hours ago
Comment by PaulHoule 2 hours ago
If the game is wearing a $20k watch or understanding the covert signs of status that you might find in a particular community, that's something different.
Comment by ekjhgkejhgk 1 hour ago
Comment by kanbara 23 minutes ago
yeah, people code switch, but i have come across many many people who just say things differently from the majority pronunciation. they’re not misunderstood and they can communicate just fine (see nucular vs nuclear). that’s just how language works, right
Comment by ekjhgkejhgk 13 minutes ago
I hear people say "ask" and people say "aks". I hear both, and I see there's a difference. In your mind people who say "aks" can't see there's two variants. Why not? You're being patronising. I think they do and they make a choice, like I do. I COULD start saying "aks" and choose not to.
What next, are you going to argue that people who wear their pants down by their knees don't know that's now how you use pants? I think they know there's alternatives, and that's what they choose to do.
Comment by bjackman 14 minutes ago
FWIW I don't have a problem with it at all. As the article mentioned there's an aspect of power politics (I'm important enough not to have to worry about formatting). But to me instead of <I wish elites weren't so callous with text> I feel <everyone should feel empowered to write like that> (again, maybe not quite to the level of Epstein, but e.g. capitalisation is just unimportant. Signing off emails with "best wishes" is not a good use of anyone's 500 milliseconds).
Comment by 10xDev 4 minutes ago
Yet I'm on Twitter reading "Prison for attempted murderer enablers like this clown" by the world's richest man. My guess is that it has just become a way of status signalling more than anything else.
Comment by ryandrake 2 hours ago
Comment by AdamN 2 hours ago
The founders said it was very 'senior' of him and laughed about it. But it's also kind of indicative of seniority because senior people aren't wasting time looking up the correct spelling of a company name - they get the email out with the salient details with the right amount of time invested into it. You want to be dialed in but also if you're doing lots of stuff at scale it doesn't really matter what the name of the startup is. Ideally you did the right diligence before the decision to invest was made but then at that point only a few key things matter and are worth keeping in hot memory any more - things like where the founders went to college (in case it helps with a future connection), what the market is (in case it helps with a future connection), what they need help with (in case it can be brought up with a connection), etc...
Comment by snikeris 2 hours ago
Comment by DangitBobby 1 hour ago
Comment by RamblingCTO 2 hours ago
Comment by ryandrake 1 hour ago
If the delta is simply "cognitive load" then we're back to the theory I already posted.
Comment by jordanb 2 hours ago
Comment by RamblingCTO 2 hours ago
Comment by mihaic 2 hours ago
Comment by mrec 1 hour ago
Comment by RamblingCTO 2 hours ago
Comment by hshdhdhj4444 2 hours ago
Gotta be really incredibly efficient while planning your time on Epstein Island doing Epstein Class things to Epstein girls.
These world changing guys clearly have no spare time on their hands at all.
Comment by cindyllm 2 hours ago
Comment by maldev 2 hours ago
Comment by dathinab 1 hour ago
but spelling and grammar still isn't a good indicator for expertise, intelligence or anything like that even in an academic context
Mainly:
1. Dyslexia doesn't make you dump, just likely to misspell and a less likely to notice your misspelling.
2. When speaking about neurodivergence people mainly think about Autism or ADHD but sometimes just mean that your brain thinks in very different patters, this can make grammar hard. Especially if it's not your native language.
3. Sometimes people had shitty situations earlier in their live, leading to incorrectly learning parts of languages. This is hard to fix. But isn't really representative in any way for their expertise in any topic which isn't the given languages grammar.
4. English grammar and pronunciation to spelling mapping aren't exactly well designed. People not wanting to bother with it is not really related to intelligence, or excellence in other topics.
5. Some kinds of expertise are unrelated to general intelligence, expertise, education. So even if spelling and grammar where related to intelligence, it wouldn't be meaningful to judge expertise.
Comment by ryandrake 46 minutes ago
I worked with a tech founder at one point in my life, and I once happened to get a glance at his undergrad college transcripts which were, for reasons unknown, just sitting out on his desk. It was all Ds and Cs. He barely graduated! Yet his networth was more than the combined net worth of all of his employees.
Comment by jedberg 2 minutes ago
But my diploma still says "UC Berkeley" on it, just like the guys with the 3.9 GPA. And when I hang out with PhD friends' PhD friends, they just assume I'm a PhD too.
So what I'm saying is that sometimes smart people don't put a lot of effort into school.
Comment by philipwhiuk 1 hour ago
Comment by aduty 1 hour ago
Comment by hax0ron3 2 hours ago
If your theory is correct and the global elite really isn't significantly smarter than the average population then the next question is, how are they maintaining their spots against smarter competitors?
Comment by UncleMeat 1 hour ago
This question is only difficult to answer if we believe that our system operates on merit. A system that operates on power, connections, and backroom favors happily maintains the status of mediocre people.
Comment by joe_mamba 2 hours ago
Blackmail, lying, cunning, manipulation, backstabbing, machiavellianism, etc,
You need to be intelligent at these, above all else.
Comment by hax0ron3 1 hour ago
Comment by joe_mamba 1 hour ago
Comment by jordanb 2 hours ago
Or at the very least, the things we tell ourselves are meritorious are not what actually what causes people to rise to the top of our society.
By the way I'm also astonished by their lack of taste. The Epstein properties give off a sinister vibe as one would expect, but watching -- for instance -- Architectural Digest videos you get the impression that either the property has been professionally staged with pottery barn/cb2 esthetic or it was decorated with painting-of-dogs-playing-poker levels of sophistication.
Not surprising I guess but you'd think someone with essentially unlimited budget who has complete dominion over their own time wouldn't end up living in an enormous, expensive, alienating ugg boot.
Comment by stackghost 2 hours ago
It is bunk. Nobody who has even a modicum of critical thinking ability thinks that Donald Trump or Elon Musk are geniuses.
Luck and circumstance are an immense part of success.
Comment by vardalab 1 hour ago
Comment by otterley 1 hour ago
You can’t really understand Trump’s decisions unless you understand that despite all evidence to the contrary, Trump himself truly believes he is the smartest person in the room, regardless of who else is in it; and he will not suffer anyone who dares to contradict him.
Comment by ryandrake 1 hour ago
Comment by mmooss 2 hours ago
And corruption of power is the cause, I suspect. It has poisoned human minds in all places and times; none of us are immune (which is why we design governments that limit individual power). An early lesson in being in charge was that, having nobody to whom I reported, who would see my work and compel me to a high standard, I let things slip.
Reportees rarely help you: Often they don't know what you do; when they do see it, they assume it's acceptable - you know what you want, and you set the standard of quality and establish the norms. Generally they have obvious disincentives against disapproving of you, and not just as some political tactic but for personal comfort: days are much more pleasant if your boss is friendly. They will give positive or at least non-negative responses to most substandard boss work.
I had to learn to think of it in two ways: First, would I accept this work from someone reporting to me? Second, I internalized the medium- and long-term consequences of substandard leadership and management: once your organization has caught that disease, once that's your reputation, it's very hard to change.
Comment by rdevilla 39 minutes ago
Comment by joe_mamba 2 hours ago
Reminds me how I double and triple check the emails I sent out to the higher ups in the company to make sure spelling and language tone was good, while in his emails Epstein was like "wazzup retards, kiddie fiddling party at my place" and getting replies from 3 world leaders and 5 CEOs. Then him and Israel's' former PM were both struggling to spell PALANTIR over the phone. It's a big club and you're not in it.
Comment by jordanb 2 hours ago
Comment by throw_rust 2 hours ago
Comment by rickcarlino 2 hours ago
Comment by normanthreep 1 hour ago
people love talking to them
Comment by blast 1 hour ago
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Comment by potsandpans 1 hour ago
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Comment by mmooss 2 hours ago
* Very time-consuming, especially for edits/corrections
* Lacks functionality (where is undo? the right/left arrow keys?) and other functionality is very poor (mouse/pointer control)
* Frustrating!
* Consumes attention: I can type on a full keyboard while looking elsewhere - including talking to someone else, though of course all actions suffer. On full keyboards I can type while reading something, to transcribe it, or I can just watch the output. Or just imagine using keyboard-based commands (e.g., Vim) on a smartphone.
I've tried alternative screen keyboards and they are a bit better, but it still sucks a lot.
Comment by rdevilla 37 minutes ago
IRC was a literate culture, owing to its roots in the physical medium of the typewriter. It imposed technical barriers to entry selecting for a minimum of intelligence.
After kneecapping the literate media by destroying this input mechanism with touch screens, the audiovisual media flooded in to fill the vacuum - and brought with it the illiterate masses who now all see themselves as amateur videographers, unencumbered from the previous burdens of needing to "read the fucking manual."
Comment by mrob 1 hour ago
Comment by bluGill 1 hour ago
Phones will always be miserable - but they are the least miserable option in a lot of situations and so I expect people to use them a lot just because the other tools are even worse.
Comment by mmooss 1 hour ago
For heavy typers, physical keyboards in candybar phones (.e.g, old Blackberrys, etc.) and landscape-oriented clamshells fix many issues, but those are outre for some reason. Even on-screen UIs could be better. Just arrow keys to move to the cursor precisely would be a signficant improvement.
Comment by surgical_fire 48 minutes ago
Comment by everdrive 2 hours ago
I use a bluetooth keyboard for typing on my phone unless I'm out in the world. The number of people who want to have long-form conversations through a phone interface is shocking to me since it's such an awful experience and there are so, so many available alternatives.
Comment by bluGill 1 hour ago
Comment by draw_down 38 minutes ago
Comment by tencentshill 3 hours ago
Comment by TYPE_FASTER 2 hours ago
Not sure I agree. I remember e-mails being capitalized and punctuated.
It's not so much typos and laziness as much as incomplete thoughts and distraction. Communication as a whole has devolved from an e-mail with a complete thought and some details to a text or chat message without capitalization, punctuation or context.
The lack of capitalization and punctuation are just a tell to me that the sender didn't put thought into it.
I can't tell you how many times I get a chat message asking a question. I in return ask questions about context, and explain why I'm asking. Then the original sender gets annoyed and provides context. Then I ask more questions. Then the original sender gets quiet. Then I get an invite to a meeting to discuss with a wider audience.
Comment by b40d-48b2-979e 32 minutes ago
Then the original sender gets quiet. Then I get an invite to a meeting to discuss with a
wider audience.
One of the most infuriating aspects of working in corporate with people where English is not the primary language.Comment by kstrauser 2 hours ago
I make an effort to use correct spelling and grammar in everything I write that's longer than "ok i'll check when at office", but sometimes it slips past. People still seem to understand what I'm telling them, though, and that's the ultimate goal.
Comment by triceratops 3 hours ago
Ima call bullshit on this. Read the published letters of some historical figures.
Comment by kristjansson 2 hours ago
You see it start to change with the telegraph on down to where we are today.
Comment by ASalazarMX 1 hour ago
Telegrams were paid by the word, and were all uppercase by design, they're not an evolution of language. It took more effort to adapt your message to a telegram than to write a proper sentence.
Comment by kstrauser 2 hours ago
Comment by SoftTalker 2 hours ago
Comment by kstrauser 2 hours ago
I wouldn't spend nearly as much effort on something ephemeral and instant. For instance, I'm not going to mail my sister in another state a letter saying "ok thanks". I very while might text her that, because 1) she knows exactly what I'm referring to — the thing we were talking about 11 seconds earlier; 2) the customs of messaging mean she doesn't expect or want a wall of text; and 3) if she has any more questions, she can ask them and I'll reply within a minute or two.
Comment by YinglingHeavy 2 hours ago
Comment by triceratops 2 hours ago
Comment by overtone1000 2 hours ago
"Dictated but not read."
Comment by mmooss 2 hours ago
There is a time pressure to communicate this way, but I think it's generally a management mistake:
Managment includes leadership (usually). Your messages are most of what most people in the organization see of you. You set the high bar; nobody will prioritize quality and attention to detail more than you. And that standard is global IME - you can't very effectively set the example that messages can be sloppy but nothing else.
For messages to my social inner circle, for example, I am much less careful - misspellings, abbreviations, etc. For messages to people I manage or lead, I make sure it's perfect every time.
Comment by bluGill 1 hour ago
Messages to a single vice president get much less care.
Comment by mmooss 1 hour ago
Comment by moralestapia 2 hours ago
Lmao. If you think these people are busy, I have news for you.
Comment by k33n 1 hour ago
Comment by rexpop 1 hour ago
And their class all recognize it. Possibly it's a class marker.
Here, I have to carefully articulate my point because I am desperately trying to convince you not to carry water for the Epstein a class.
Comment by k33n 17 minutes ago
I'm not sure I understand.
Comment by lab14 2 hours ago
being a non-native english speaker, removing capitalization from my writing removed a ton of anxiety when writing text and didn't change at all the landing of my messages or my ideas.
Comment by RiverCrochet 1 hour ago
Comment by ASalazarMX 1 hour ago
Comment by WhyNotHugo 1 hour ago
Comment by rkomorn 1 hour ago
This comment is just so much, all by virtue of caps lock.
Comment by ismailmaj 1 hour ago
Comment by RandomLensman 1 hour ago
Comment by lab14 1 hour ago
Comment by probably_wrong 2 hours ago
Capitalization makes it easy for the reader to know where a concept ends and a new one begins. Without capitalization, your comment reads like a run-on sentence - a period in my display is 2px tall while a comma is 3.5px tall, the lack of capitalization makes my brain read them all as commas, and therefore your text is harder for me to parse. So I'd say yes, removing capitals did change the landing of your ideas for the worse.
Comment by netsharc 1 hour ago
It was flabbergasting..
Comment by bluGill 1 hour ago
Technically I should wait a day to hey the reply button here. I don't see anything wrong with this post now, but it is a reasonable bet that there is something that someone else sees.
Comment by officeplant 1 hour ago
Haha, yeah. I was face palming some obvious typos in an important email earlier. Even after reading it four times. I find this helps in writing music as well. I come back a day later and so many things stick out that my brain would just gloss over.
Comment by lab14 1 hour ago
right, because i couldn't have adopted this writing style in the past few weeks.
to address your second point, i could probably make better use of punctuation, but the original message is still delivered without all the fluff IMO.
Comment by davemp 1 hour ago
Ignorance of why something exists is not a good enough reason to destroy it.
Comment by badgersnake 45 minutes ago
Comment by IshKebab 1 hour ago
This doesn't apply to capitalisation, but generally especially in computing if there's something that looks useless you should remove it. If it breaks the fault lies with whomever left something useless there without a note to explain it.
The current project I'm working on has about 3 copies of every component because nobody bothers to clear up after themselves - dead code isn't doing any harm and it's better to leave it in case it's needed right?
Well sure, if you want me to work about 3x slower than I otherwise could. Not an exaggeration.
Comment by ASalazarMX 1 hour ago
IT IS THE WAY OF OUR FOUNCERS
Comment by lab14 1 hour ago
Comment by ASalazarMX 1 hour ago
If you're going to qualify capitalization as an arbitrary rule, then it wouldn't matter if it's all lowercase or all uppercase. It's not a whim of scholars, it improves readability, it emphasizes, it carries meaning.
All uppercase looks loud today, but early computers were also all uppercase and it was normal. All lowercase looks bland and sloppy, only a few steps removed from "what u doing lol?" texting shorthand.
Comment by redwood 2 hours ago
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Comment by bitroughj 2 hours ago