Downtown Denver's office vacancy rate grows to 38.2%
Posted by mooreds 2 days ago
Comments
Comment by mattcantstop 2 days ago
This is one of the main principles of BAD design, where you create an entire area around close to a single use (offices). That creates a very fragile city. This "single use" zoning that the US proliferated makes us really fragile to changes like working from home vs in-office work.
Another point is that cities are rather hostile for families. We create cities so they need to be fled as soon as people have kids. We have streets entirely of concrete and 1 and 2 bedroom apartments. If we want cities to be more resilient we need to rethink them. We need streets that have greenspace as a fundamental part of the infrastructure. We need permeable surfaces.
I went to Park am Gleisdreieck in Berlin and stayed in a multi-family unit right along the park. There were tons of families with kids playing in the park, people riding bikes for transportation along the park bike paths, adults playing ping pong on outdoor tables together. It was wonderful. It made me rethink what a city can look like.
Denver needs to take notes. We don't need a single use city and a light rail system that only goes into that city. We made an incredibly fragile city. We can build better cities.
Comment by jmward01 2 days ago
Comment by FloorEgg 2 days ago
Lots more example I could list.
However I think there are contexts and levels of abstraction where diversity at one level prohibits diversity at another. An example of this would be standards. There is little diversity in shipping container sizes and designs and that standardization enables more shipment of goods.
Standardization in web protocols enables larger diversity in website content.
While I'm not an expert in biology, I'm pretty sure some of our organs have a lot less diversity in cell types than others. E.g. a healthy heart has little cellular diversity compared to a healthy gut.
By standardizing money (limiting diversity in barter) enables a larger economy with greater diversity of products and services.
A highly functional team will all share a core set of values, and if everyone had extremely diverse values the team wouldn't be able to function. For example some businessess thrive on a culture of internal competition, and some thrive on internal cooperation, but mixing these up can create dysfunction. At the same time, some diversity in values leads to better decision making, so again context matters.
So my point is that diversity is a really important property that sometimes needs to be maximized, sometimes needs to be minimized, and sometimes needs to be balanced, in order to achieve the desired outcomes. I also think that in general maximizing global diversity is a good north star value, and I am acknowledging that to achieve it requires minimizing diversity in some narrow contexts.
Comment by bigstrat2003 2 days ago
Comment by mw1 2 days ago
Comment by mixmastamyk 2 days ago
Of course this utopia would attract folks from other areas, so can’t be solved only locally. Needs national support.
Comment by ottah 2 days ago
Comment by lotsoweiners 2 days ago
Comment by ottah 1 day ago
Comment by nathanaldensr 1 day ago
Comment by coderc 2 days ago
Comment by binary132 2 days ago
Comment by collingreen 2 days ago
Comment by dulakian 1 day ago
Comment by mixmastamyk 2 days ago
If you’ve never seen anything but stroads and power lines, I guess it makes sense.
Comment by jmye 2 days ago
Sure sounds like literally every major park in the city.
The rest of your comment certainly describes downtown/RINO, but does not, at all, describe anything even half a mile away from downtown.
I’m slightly confused by your descriptions. I’m more confused by how you think Denver ought to build transit that goes from the suburbs to other suburbs, or if you think we ought to just raze the whole thing? I’m not sure that would get voter support.
Comment by fowkswe 2 days ago
This isn’t Denver-specific at all. It’s how every US city was built.
For ~100 years we planned cities around one assumption: work happens in a centralized office, five days a week. Transit, zoning, downtown land use, parking, even tax bases were optimized for the daily commute. Downtowns became office monocultures; neighborhoods became places you slept.
Remote work broke that model. The result is cities that are now unfortunately organized around a behavior that no longer dominates daily life - and we’re still trying to operate them as if it does.
Comment by browningstreet 2 days ago
That's a favorite running spot of mine when I'm in Berlin. It's also along a great bus line, close to gyms, a technology museum, a bio market, Victoria Park and not far from Tempelhof. But that little park shines on its own. And the cars parked along the road are down a half level so you don't feel surrounded by parked cars.
That's a pet peeve of mine in America, and especially the American west. We put outdoor seating for cafes and restaurants along busy streets or busy parking lots. Which downgrades the outdoor experience and supports the car priority mindset.
Comment by ethbr1 2 days ago
Putting parks half a level above (or below) street level is a surprisingly easy hack for vastly improving the experience. I wish more places did this.
Comment by insane_dreamer 1 day ago
Comment by Glyptodon 2 days ago
Comment by ottah 2 days ago
Comment by f1shy 2 days ago
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
I'd rather live in a somewhat 'noisy' vibrant neighborhood where I can walk to shops or restaurants than an absolutely dead residential cul-de-sac where I have to literally drive miles to the nearest amenity. If the noise bothers you at night, get a sound machine or install triple pane windows.
I understand having industrial separate from everything else, but commercial and residential should always be blended IMHO, and SFH zoning should not exist.
I would kill for reformed zoning standards like they have in Japan.
Comment by f1shy 2 days ago
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
>I guess people should vote by choosing to live where they want
I'd have no problem with this if dense, multi-use zoning were common. As it is, very few places in the US are as livable as much of Europe and the more developed parts of Asia.
Comment by jmye 2 days ago
So tired of this strident bullshit (“and SFH zoning should not exist”) from people who can’t seem to figure out other people exist and have thoughts and preferences, too.
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
>I'd have no problem with this if dense, multi-use zoning were common. As it is, very few places in the US are as livable as much of Europe and the more developed parts of Asia.
It's easy to say 'live where you want' when your preferred housing isn't illegal in most of the US.
Comment by lotsoweiners 2 days ago
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
Comment by direwolf20 2 days ago
Comment by eudamoniac 1 day ago
Comment by direwolf20 1 day ago
Comment by eudamoniac 1 day ago
This is not mentioning the gorillion dollars Seattle already spends on homeless help to no avail; asylums are probably the only real solution to that.
Comment by mothballed 2 days ago
Comment by nathanaldensr 1 day ago
Not everyone likes what you like.
Comment by xnx 2 days ago
I don't think urban planners will ever admit or apologize for the damage they've done.
Comment by renewiltord 2 days ago
US norms are for much larger homes.
Comment by fwip 2 days ago
Comment by renewiltord 2 days ago
Comment by pixelatedindex 2 days ago
Comment by lotsoweiners 2 days ago
Comment by phatfish 2 days ago
Comment by estearum 2 days ago
Comment by jmward01 2 days ago
Comment by pixelatedindex 2 days ago
A 3 bed with 1K sq ft still gives you like a 10x10 room - more than enough space for a crib and a queen bed. And you have two other bedrooms to spare. As they get older and need space to run around and stuff, there’s no shortage of parks / trails / fields.
Comment by disgruntledphd2 1 day ago
It definitely depends on climate. I live in Ireland (in a relatively small house in the suburbs) and in the summer, there's absolutely no problem as we can take the kids out pretty regularly. However, in the winter when it's dark at 5pm and wet and windy, I definitely feel like we don't have enough space.
I do think the US houses seem absurdly large to me, but then lots of the more recent houses built in ireland are of a similar size.
Comment by red-iron-pine 1 day ago
plenty of kids playing outside, just heavily bundled and for short stints.
and we still have 3rd Places nearby, like community centers
Comment by disgruntledphd2 1 day ago
> for short stints.
This is the issue though, we have a 2.5 year old who's just super active, and it's much easier to tire him out when the weather is better and there's more light. Like, right now in Ireland it's still completely dark by 5.30 which means it's hard to tire him out in the winter.
> and we still have 3rd Places nearby, like community centers
That's cool, we have those too but they're mostly kid friendly in the mornings and afternoons and used for adult stuff in the evenings.
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
Comment by estearum 2 days ago
Comment by red-iron-pine 1 day ago
do fatass americans just need more space to function?
Comment by citrin_ru 2 days ago
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
Also, I don't get how companies can make such a big song and dance about their climate commitments on the one hand while simultaneously insisting on RTO on the other. The greenest commute is one that never happens. If the tax code needs to change to give companies credit for their employees cutting out their commute, so be it.
Comment by cal_dent 2 days ago
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
Comment by cal_dent 2 days ago
Comment by wing-_-nuts 1 day ago
Comment by cal_dent 1 day ago
https://restoreoregon.org/2021/04/12/understanding-the-carbo...
Comment by rbanffy 2 days ago
Comment by shagie 2 days ago
There's a NYT article on the challenges about this from a few years ago: So You Want to Turn an Office Building Into a Home? -- Here’s How to Solve a 25-Story Rubik’s Cube https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office...
Comment by toomuchtodo 2 days ago
You can think of class c office space, broadly speaking, as oil wells that have very little life left, and get bought up by folks who intend to extract the cashflow until they dump the externality on the public government and taxpayers (like abandoned shopping malls).
A recent example in St Louis is the AT&T office tower [1] [2].
[1] One of St. Louis’ tallest office towers, empty for years, sells for less than 2% of its peak price - https://www.costar.com/article/642008108/one-of-st-louis-tal... - April 10th, 2024 ("Goldman Group buys 44-story former AT&T office tower for $3.6 Million")
[2] St. Louis office vacancy hits all-time high [21.2%] as major companies downsize their footprints - https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2026/01/15/office-v... - January 16th, 2026
(conversions when the economics pencil out, haircuts for investors when they don't and more investment is needed to wholesale replace a structure)
US office vacancy rates chart supposedly pulled from Moody's: https://old.reddit.com/r/charts/comments/1p8mhmq/us_office_v...
Comment by palmotea 2 days ago
There should probably building code changes to ban the latter type of office building, and keep the space more flexible and convertible to residential. A big plus is the resulting office space would probably be nicer to workers.
Comment by xnx 2 days ago
Comment by dnemmers 2 days ago
Comment by mooreds 2 days ago
Comment by 46493168 2 days ago
https://www.boston.gov/news/officials-celebrate-first-100-un...
Comment by pseudalopex 2 days ago
Comment by someuser54541 2 days ago
I'm not entirely sure how that math works out, or why, because one would think it couldn't be that complicated. Maybe someone here knows more about this.
Comment by vel0city 2 days ago
There's also a lot of work that probably needs to go in to the ventilation and fire code changes. An office building isn't designed for people having ovens and stoves. It also often just assumes its OK to have less isolation between units for the ventilation, or previously entire floors were considered to be one space ventilation-wise but now you might be trying to split it into 2-3 units that require separation. This separation can also complicate things like AC and heat.
The ventilation issue comes up a good bit with a lot of these poorly done conversions. You end up with units that just don't get nearly enough airflow, and all the windows are sealed so its not like one can just open the window to get more air.
Comment by mullen 2 days ago
Comment by mothballed 2 days ago
History favors the bold, and code inspectors blabbering about "written in blood" don't see all the homeless people they kill via reduced access to housing.
I've seen plenty of artist collectives that manage it; on paper they are office/industrial but actually everyone lives there. Every once in awhile one burns down but the mortality rate isn't as high as living on the streets which is ultimately what happens to those on the bottom of the socio-economic pyramid when the ones higher up push the ones under them down a rung to snag housing.
Comment by vel0city 2 days ago
You also then had everything pretty much isolated to two rooms for an entire floor meanwhile now every unit is going to have a separate kitchen, a bathroom (or two, or three), a laundry room, etc.
And you're going to need a good bit of engineering studies done before you start cutting that many holes in the floor.
Comment by someuser54541 2 days ago
These seem like extremely solve-able problems.
Comment by vel0city 2 days ago
Not saying it can't ever be done, it really depends on the building. But its not necessarily a good assumption it can be done well in a cost-effective fashion.
Comment by bethekidyouwant 2 days ago
Comment by usrusr 2 days ago
Comment by pseudalopex 2 days ago
Demolishing the office building and building a residential building is more profitable often.
Comment by vel0city 2 days ago
The economics just often work out a lot better to tear down the old structure and rebuild a new one more fit for purpose.
Comment by vel0city 2 days ago
Sure, you could just cram the residences to the edges and try to recoup the cost of the rest of the square footage for places that don't need natural light. But once again you've got issues with original designs and intents for the building. None of the plumbing is designed to be pushed to the edges, so you'll need to make massive changes to the structural integrity by drilling a bunch of new floor cores to do all the new plumbing work. You could rent the interior spaces as storage, but you'll probably quickly flood the market of storage units with the massive amount of square footage you'll be bringing.
Trying to have industrial in there as well is asking for problems. Trying to rent some 15th story small/medium interior unit as some kind of industrial workshop would be quite weird. What kind of industry would want a smaller interior space that probably can't support heavy equipment, has a limit to ceilings of ~10 or so feet, can't require odd ventilation or strange/additional fire suppression/separation requirements, probably has significant power limitations (in terms of industrial capacity, at least), noise limitations, difficulty getting much product in and out, etc? Stuff that the city is going to be OK zoning literally across the hall from people trying to live? And that you're going to find a number of these willing to pay a good bit for such a space to cover the maintenance costs? These buildings weren't built for industrial usages, they were built for office desks and couches. Maybe a few floors have been upgraded to handle additional weight to have datacenter kind of spaces, but definitely not most of the floors.
So then you're trying to spread the maintenance costs of this massive and old building across higher value residences and a lot of very low value storage/weird industrial tenants.
Comment by mothballed 2 days ago
Comment by quickthrowman 2 days ago
You can Swiss-cheese a pan and deck concrete floor with core-drilled holes, the important thing is GPDR scanning before coring to avoid the pre- or post-tension cables embedded in the concrete.
Comment by boelboel 2 days ago
I'm sure many many people have thought of all sort of solutions as the value for finding some sort of solution is extremely high.
Comment by quickthrowman 2 days ago
A 20,000 sq ft office tower floor will usually have a single set of restrooms and a couple of kitchen sinks, maybe a dishwasher, plus a couple 6-gallon or instahot water heaters. If you subdivide that floor into a dozen units, that’s 12 showers, 12 washers, 12 dishwashers, 12 toilets, 24 sinks, and 12 water heaters.
The riser and drain pipes aren’t big enough to handle residential needs.
Comment by mothballed 2 days ago
They might subdivide it 12 ways, but there is one shared kitchen for a whole floor and maybe 2 toilets, 2 sinks and the residents are going to the laundromats. They tend to put the shared amenities on the ground floor as much as possible because it is easiest to expand them there. It beats being homeless by a long shot.
For reference, when I hauled water, we used about 60 gallons a week for a family, or about 0.05% utilization of a 3" drain pipe for a single family. You do not need much water in order to be way way better off than being homeless; 5/gal a day of non-potable water and you're pretty much in luxury comparatively and a shit-ton of people can be putting that down a 3" or even 2" drain pipe before it causes problems. A 3" pipe is the minimum that would be serving a typical floor of a warehouse, so plenty enough for a constantly used couple of shared bathrooms with a shared kitchen. Honestly even splitting it 12 ways could be overcome with some technical ingenuity (electric lock-outs to prevent more than a few in use at once, and AAVs to prevent needing a bunch of new vents).
These are all easily overcome problems for people utilizing an ounce of civil disobedience with regards to the code. And yes I have personally done all the design and plumbing and electric for multi-structure properties (though not the black market ones).
Comment by quickthrowman 2 days ago
It didn’t work out so great in Oakland at the Ghost Ship, 36 people died in a similar arrangement.
Building code is written in blood, things are done a certain way for a reason. You may be morally or ethically against them but following code saves lives.
Comment by mothballed 2 days ago
Not having housing didn't work out great for 700+ dead homeless people per year that are estimated to die of hypothermia.
The code inspectors have blood in their hands. You may be morally or ethically against bypassing the codes, but bypassing it can save lives.
Black market housing is done for a reason, a very good one, and one that saves lives. Fortunately where I live, I built a house without any inspections whatsoever, so none of the code psychopaths were even around to make their absurd case about the ghost ship, and that is the only reason why I was even able to afford to own a house.
Comment by helterskelter 2 days ago
Comment by wing-_-nuts 2 days ago
Yep, and that's fine. It's literally a tangible instance of 'creative destruction'. I see people arguing that oh, we have to RTO to save the current model and it seems so backwards to me.
Comment by paularmstrong 2 days ago
Comment by xnx 2 days ago
Comment by gedy 2 days ago
Comment by justinhj 2 days ago
When it is suggested today modern planners and developers say it can't be done. What changed?
Comment by zdragnar 2 days ago
Commercial office buildings are optimized for seating space, so you get a lot more interior walls already built and often shorter ceilings then industrial spaces. That's a lot more renovation to add in all the necessary plumbing for showers and toilets and often laundry in every unit.
New building codes mean that everything has to be done right to today's standards, not yesteryear's, so it becomes cheaper to demolish and rebuild than retrofit, especially if the building has a lot of interior space that doesn't have access to exterior walls for mandated windows.
Comment by nickdothutton 2 days ago
Comment by pseudalopex 2 days ago
Comment by AnimalMuppet 2 days ago
(Why the 1980s? Because I go back that far. I have some sense of what the business cycle was doing during those times. I'd like to know if this is really historically unusual, or just a blip, possibly a COVID-related one.)
Comment by armenarmen 2 days ago
Whenever friends move here I say “don’t live downtown” and inevitably they do and they hate it.
Comment by samschooler 2 days ago
Comment by elnatro 2 days ago
Comment by liquidise 2 days ago
Comment by lux-lux-lux 2 days ago
‘Just build more’ YIMBY types should take note of this, though I’m afraid I don’t know what the solution is.
Comment by zeroonetwothree 2 days ago
Comment by mixmastamyk 2 days ago
Commercial leases have their own quirks and long timelines that encourage waiting on a better price. Perhaps a tax on vacant commercial units.
Comment by Izikiel43 2 days ago
Those right conditions for rent going down are the wrong conditions for everything else.
Comment by mixmastamyk 2 days ago
Comment by puppycodes 2 days ago
I never really understood the economics of leaving spaces empty and not hemorrhaging money.
My guess would be its a game of large numbers where private equity can own large swaths of properties and can afford to keep them vacant by controlling the market through manufactured scarcity? Is it like the diamond market?
Comment by red-iron-pine 1 day ago
plus keep rents high and the handful of folks that really need it will pay it.
several cities get around this by having under-utilization taxes -- e.g. slap an extra 30% on any property in X neighborhoods that are empty or otherwise cannot prove 50% occupancy
Comment by renewiltord 2 days ago
Comment by burkaman 2 days ago
Comment by samschooler 2 days ago
Comment by burkaman 2 days ago
Comment by samschooler 2 days ago
Comment by samschooler 2 days ago
Comment by renewiltord 2 days ago
Comment by burkaman 2 days ago
Comment by renewiltord 2 days ago
Which proposition or conclusion above do you disagree with and why?
Comment by burkaman 2 days ago
You're also making another implicit claim here that DSA chapters have never had any impact other than stopping affordable housing and creating parks, which I think would be difficult to defend. After a minute of Wikipedia research, I see that at least nine members of Congress were active DSA members during their tenure, and obviously had other accomplishments. For example, I see that DSA member Major Owens was in Congress for 24 years and was a significant factor in passing the ADA.
Comment by renewiltord 2 days ago
Comment by asdff 2 days ago
Comment by lux-lux-lux 2 days ago
Comment by bethekidyouwant 2 days ago
Comment by burkaman 2 days ago
Comment by mead5432 2 days ago
Boulder is surprisingly low. From my experience, it’s on the more expensive side for single family homes. I’m curious what’s driving the info in that dashboard.