A brief history of Times New Roman
Posted by tosh 19 hours ago
Comments
Comment by somat 15 hours ago
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125007673623
As someone who is not a design snob (I tend to fall into the ontology snob bucket) the bit I liked is the way the types were categorized, there is the roman style and the egyptian style. And while roman was obvious "Ah yes like times new roman" egyptian was not familiar to me. Easy enough to figure out that it is what today we call sans-serif but I wonder when the term fell out of use?
Comment by Rendello 14 hours ago
> master sign-painter James Callingham writes in his textbook "Sign Writing and Glass Embossing" (1871) that "What one calls San-serif, another describes as grotesque; what is generally known as Egyptian, is some times called Antique, though it is difficult to say why, seeing that the letters so designated do not date farther back than the close of the last century. Egyptian is perhaps as good a term as could be given to the letters bearing that name, the blocks being characteristic of the Egyptian style of architecture. These letters were first used by sign-writers at the close of the last century, and were not introduced in printing till about twenty years later. Sign-writers were content to call them "block letters," and they are sometimes so-called at the present day; but on their being taken in hand by the type founders, they were appropriately named Egyptian. The credit of having introduced the ordinary square or san-serif letters also belongs to the sign-writer, by whom they were employed half a century before the type founder gave them his attention, which was about the year 1810."
Comment by agalunar 14 hours ago
Comment by flomo 12 hours ago
Comment by ashton314 13 hours ago
The site is really fun: at the bottom you can change the body text from Valkyrie to Equity, Concourse, etc. (these are all fonts that he made).
His books are made with a Racket-based publishing system called Pollen. I've used it a little bit and it's nice: it's incredibly flexible, so you have to do a lot of work to get what you want out of it, but it also doesn't confine you.
He's made some gorgeous typefaces: https://mbtype.com/ His license is far and away the most permissive non-OFL license I've encountered: buy the font once for the lowest price I've seen in a professional font, and then you can use it pretty much everywhere indefinitely. So nice.
I use two of his typefaces (Valkyrie, similar to Palatino, and Hermes Maia, a sans-serif based off of a German typeface) on my blog so you can see it in action: https://lambdaland.org/
Comment by SunshineTheCat 17 hours ago
My personal bias aside, in terms of a typeface itself, it's ok, but it feels like there have always been a number of alternatives that are stylistically better or more readable.
But as with anything in type, it just depends on what personality/style you're wanting to convey with it.
Comment by gjvc 17 hours ago
this became a replacement for the phrase "it's all gone pear-shaped" to describe a dire situation.
Comment by chihuahua 15 hours ago
I read HN articles about some company being shaken down for using an unlicensed font on their website, draconic font licensing agreements, paying per page impression for fonts. And I do not understand why anyone would even bother specifying a non-standard font that requires a license and payment for their website. None of your customers are going to care one bit either way. Except perhaps for the 0.000001% of the population that care about fonts. But even those, are they going to say "I'm not going to order my RAM from you, because you have a bad font on your site?" That seems unlikely. If using some non-free font costs even $1, or takes even 1 minute of your time, it's already a losing proposition.
What's even more strange is reading strong opinions on how great Helvetica is, or how terrible Arial is ("Microsoft bad", I know.) They're the same thing! I guess I'm too dumb to notice the subtle notes of citrus and leather in the kerning, the sublime genius of the hinting.
Comment by drob518 14 hours ago
Comment by montagg 14 hours ago
Comment by criddell 12 hours ago
Comment by creata 14 hours ago
Comment by criddell 15 hours ago
Comment by ghaff 15 hours ago
I should say as well that I've spent a fair bit of time in Asia and, to my Western eyes, a lot of conference materials look amateurish and make my eyes bleed. Maybe it doesn't matter much at the end of the day but I think it does at some level.
Comment by criddell 12 hours ago
Comment by ghaff 12 hours ago
Comment by wmedrano 15 hours ago
This, like almost all writing about fonts, is bewildering to me. It just doesn't matter. For me, there are just 3 text editors in the world: IDE's, terminal editors, and weird editors (Ed, Teco, etc.)
What's even more strange is reading strong opinions on how great Emacs is, or how terrible NeoVim is ("Gnu good Apache bad", I know.) They're the same thing! I guess I'm too dumb to notice the subtle differences between Lisp and Lua.
Comment by commandlinefan 11 hours ago
I get where you're coming from, but the analogy sort of breaks down here - those of us who work with text editors all the time love our tool of choice because it has features that make our lives easier. I can't see how a font could have or lack a "feature".
Comment by caseyohara 10 hours ago
Oh boy. Everything about a typeface is a feature, and many of them are functional and not just stylistic choices.
- Monospace glyphs are a feature almost everyone here is familiar with and appreciates.
- Serifs are a feature for readability
- Open apertures like in humanist fonts are more readable
- Closed apertures in grotesque fonts make the text more dense
- Stroke contrast
- X-height
- Variety of weights
- Ligatures
- Dotted or slashed zero to distinguish it from capital O
- Features to distinguish capital I and lowercase l glyphs
...these are all features of a typeface.
Comment by OuterVale 8 hours ago
Comment by gorgoiler 14 hours ago
Comment by stronglikedan 14 hours ago
Comment by jjmarr 14 hours ago
https://www.brailleinstitute.org/freefont/
I never see people using it because it's a weird hybrid between serif and sans serif, breaking many traditional design rules.
Comment by gosub100 13 hours ago
Comment by Apocryphon 15 hours ago
Comment by skobes 18 hours ago
Comment by creata 18 hours ago
It should be mentioned that the x-height is much higher than the usual Times New Roman, which is usually a good thing imo, but different.
Comment by tolerance 19 hours ago
Comment by treetalker 19 hours ago
One would think that by now we'd have a way to draft and file litigation papers in plain text, perhaps with some light markup, and then the courts could automatically generate cover pages, case styles, and tables of contents and authorities; each judge could apply his own preferred styling for working with it (like a LaTeX class file); and the courts could make the official document available to the public in html and pdf versions in whatever typesetting they deem appropriate. (Even better if the public could choose the format — CSS, perhaps.)
Instead we have ever-shifting rules and standards for compliance, which vary by jurisdiction, and which waste inestimable time, energy, and expense for rules committees, lawyers, administrative staff, printers, and, of course, clients.
Comment by faccacta 18 hours ago
The Eighth Circuit gets really into this, publishing a typography guide for lawyers: https://federalcourt.press/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Eighth...
Judges, particularly appellate judges, spend a lot of their time reading briefs. So, as you can see, some of them have strong opinions about brief typography. (Judges, as a group, have strong opinions about lots of things).
Comment by 2b3a51 14 hours ago
That is a lot of reading. Depending on how long an 'argument session' is, retaining the detail must be a challenge.
Comment by Wistar 17 hours ago
Comment by treetalker 16 hours ago
Imagine if, nationwide, we lawyers could draft in plain text and never (or rarely) have to worry about court-specific typesetting rules or wrestling with Word!
Comment by alwa 14 hours ago
Of course the first comment I find upon searching is another of Matthew Butterick’s [1], in which he agrees that it’s Real Nice, and points out that the Supreme Court does not allow documents using Times New Roman to be filed there at all!
I don’t even mind that he’s writing this in his capacity as a fontmonger: if all SEO-type writing were at this level of quality and obsession, I’d be much less grumpy about it.
[0] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-869_87ad.pdf
Comment by creata 18 hours ago
It kind of makes sense to ensure that everyone is seeing the same thing, though, which is something PDF is (relatively) good at.
Comment by joering2 15 hours ago
Comment by GuinansEyebrows 17 hours ago
imagine going to court and the judge has mandated that all documents be prepared using 18pt Jokerman[0], or that all headings must use Bleeding Cowboys[1].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokerman_(typeface)
[1] https://www.dafont.com/bleeding-cowboys.fontComment by treetalker 17 hours ago
For instance, I would like 12-pt with ~1.2 line spacing, something akin to Tufte — so I have a nice wide margin to make notes and summaries.
Comment by GuinansEyebrows 16 hours ago
Comment by Mountain_Skies 15 hours ago
Comment by giraffe_lady 17 hours ago
Which is pretty funny because he's one of the typographers that is best known for his actual typography, ie information about arranging text on a plane, vs twiddling with letter design which is what most people think of with typography.
Comment by belviewreview 7 hours ago
Comment by MarkusWandel 14 hours ago
Comment by montagg 14 hours ago
A lot of those things are defined by timing and the space between moments that aren't exactly fully rational. And, if they're doing it well, they make you feel something, even if you can't describe exactly how they're doing it.
A "beautiful" font is like that. The font itself is not beautiful on its own, imo; it's raw material. The beauty comes out in how it's used, when you can look at A or B completed thing and say, oh yeah, B feels "better," but I don't know exactly why. It's not just because of the font, but the font 100% matters.
Comment by CivBase 18 hours ago
It starts with the origins of TNR. Then it basically says it's a decent font with no significant problems. Then it talks about how it's popular because it's the default.
Then in the last paragraph it takes a hard stance that you should not use TNR unless required. It even implores the reader with a bold "please stop". It makes no arguments to support this stance and offers no alternatives.
Comment by creata 18 hours ago
I agree that he's a bit too mean to mainstream fonts, though.
Comment by skobes 18 hours ago
Comment by guestbest 17 hours ago
Comment by DiogenesKynikos 18 hours ago
> Objectively, there’s nothing wrong with Times New Roman. It was designed for a newspaper, so it’s a bit narrower than most text fonts—especially the bold style. (Newspapers prefer narrow fonts because they fit more text per line.) The italic is mediocre. But those aren’t fatal flaws. Times New Roman is a workhorse font that’s been successful for a reason.
It says that there are problems. They're just not fatal.
> It even implores the reader with a bold "please stop". It makes no arguments to support this stance and offers no alternatives.
It says that there are plenty of alternatives (it specifically mentions Helvetica) that are better than Times New Roman. The argument is that Times New Roman is okay, but that it has flaws, and that there are easily available fonts that are superior. If someone is devoted enough to fonts to write a blog about them, then the existence of superior alternatives is enough of a reason to not use a font.
Comment by CivBase 17 hours ago
Helvetica is used as an example of a font which garners more "affection" in contrast to TNR, but is never praised by the author or recommended as an alternative - at least not in the linked passage.
Comment by citizenkeen 17 hours ago
Comment by ghaff 15 hours ago
Comment by DiogenesKynikos 16 hours ago
Comment by moralestapia 18 hours ago
Comment by DiogenesKynikos 17 hours ago
Comment by hilbert42 3 hours ago
Shame the author doesn't know rhe difference between typeface and font.
Comment by gzitscrux 9 hours ago
It captures the beauty of old style and transitional types like Garamond and Baskerville, without demanding the aristocratic luxury of space that these older fonts demanded, and without their stylistic pretensions. It's compact and has a high x-height. It's everyday; it doesn't connote literary snobbishness or state authority; it's the font of presses and shares its dignity with the everyday people who use it.
This excerpt's thesis seems to be that using a common font shows you don't care about your typography. This is true to some extent, but you can show you care while still making the excellent choice of Times by, e.g., using optical variants for titles, footnotes, and call numbers, and for God's sake turning on the fi ligature in Microsoft Word.
Mr. Butterick's fonts are also beautiful, but there's no need to shit on Times New Roman to sell them.
Comment by thedudeabides5 13 hours ago
Comment by barrenko 15 hours ago