The ultra-rich are claiming an increasing share of global wealth
Posted by geox 1 day ago
Comments
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
Important context: here debt is counted as negative. This means a person with no debt but zero wealth also owns more wealth than bottom 20% or so cumulatively because the debts of people cancel out with others wealth. I think this is misleading.
Comment by naveen99 23 hours ago
Comment by bloqs 1 day ago
Comment by lithocarpus 20 hours ago
Comment by llbbdd 1 day ago
Comment by scotty79 1 day ago
Comment by fragmede 23 hours ago
Comment by scotty79 20 hours ago
The question is, do your really believe loan sharks and other lenders are saviors of the poor?
In absence of lenders the issue of poor people would need to be solved systemically. Instead the government abstains and lets poor sell themselves to the highest bidder.
When it comes to calculating wealth in the context of social justice it's absolutely correct to count debt as negative.
Comment by renewiltord 1 day ago
Comment by harimau777 1 day ago
Comment by Lutger 1 day ago
Comment by renewiltord 1 day ago
Comment by Libidinalecon 23 hours ago
It is always someone else that is greedy. My American friends and I? It doesn't make sense. We are just trying to get by!
Comment by imtringued 1 day ago
Comment by parineum 1 day ago
Comment by aeternum 1 day ago
Comment by s1mplicissimus 1 day ago
Comment by imtringued 1 day ago
Someone who is using all their income to pay off student loans is "giving away".
Someone in a capital city can be living paycheck to paycheck, spending all of their money due to high rent. Meaning they're "giving away", except not to people poorer than them. They're giving away to people richer than them, so the last part is somewhat correct, but it's not funny so why are you laughing?
Comment by scotty79 1 day ago
Comment by throwaway77385 1 day ago
It feels as though over the last few decades, all we have seen is a continuing trend of increasing amounts of wealth being amassed by a smaller and smaller circle of people.
What I find incredibly hard to judge is the point at which the current system leading to this will face violent reorganisation.
We've had feudalism, communism and fascism (and even a few attempts at egalitarian democracies long before that), but they all failed. It is tempting to say they all failed because "they could have never worked". That's easy to say with hindsight.
Once the current experiment implodes, will we all be armchair experts, scoffing at the idea that this could have ever worked also? And if so, why isn't anyone looking at the system and trying to change something?
The other systems usually ended in world wars or violent revolution. Often the ruling class became too comfortable / belligerent, just to then be replaced by the same thing (but maybe with a bit of lag. See the 2nd world war's ending. The middle class thrived up until about the 70s/80s).
Would feudalism have stayed if they'd had the levels of surveillance and AI-powered control we are currently facing? How about communism? Could a planned economy work if that is suddenly super-charged with computers and AI (and the necessary oppression to achieve it)?
Capitalism mixed with strong safeguards ensuring that there is a return for productivity for everyone feels like the best attempt we've made at a system that works for everyone until all the safeguards began being dismantled in the 70s.
Can we return to that system or is regulatory capture irreversible and therefore capitalism will always inevitably lead back to feudalism? And what can be done about it once AI and automation ensure the hegemony can't be touched anymore?
I have no answers, only questions...
Comment by scrubs 10 hours ago
So, what are bad incentives and what'd we do about it?
Capitalism in the large is fine. In the medium lens tax avoidance by corporations, and those with a litany of cpas is a problem. The idea that the only function of a corporation is to increase share price is a problem. All these derive from a perspective that all that matters is the next reporting cycle or tax return.
I don't like the Chinese goverment, but i do respect the fact that they think longer term. Show me the money; show me the money is not the America we want or need to be.
Complicated tax code is another area the rich hide behind. Another problem is there are different rules for the top 5% and those connected to politicians. Our current administration in the US is a good example of just how bad that is.
Here is the US we have over corrected from the pre-Carter era in favor of the top 5% and corporations.
Comment by general1465 1 day ago
Comment by scotty79 1 day ago
And yes, for that you have to raise tax all investments. The exactly opposite of what we are doing where investments usually get tax breaks. Will it kill the growth? Only one way to find out. Without AI companies growth is zero already.
Comment by samdoesnothing 1 day ago
You mean when the US left the gold standard and began a 50 year period of inflationary money printing?
That same inflation is a direct transfer of wealth to the asset class, and a hidden tax on the working class.
> Can we return to that system
Not directly. There is zero chance that the US can return to the gold standard, but they could lose their position as the world currency and be replaced by something that is resistant to inflation.
Comment by black_13 1 day ago
Comment by AndrewThrowaway 1 day ago
Isn't is exactly the same with the system we have now?
The question we have to ask is about 99% of population of peasants who work 8h a day same as they did in Mesopotamia. Do they have a living standard, healthcare, possibility to have social bonds, possibility to retire. Basically all the things to have a life.
If peasants are able to have all this, I really don't care if some King of ours has 20 trillion or 50 bazillion. In money or in gold.
Comment by Starman_Jones 21 hours ago
Comment by e40 21 hours ago
And the trend has already started. The latest budget big will make healthcare inaccessible to mire Americans.
Comment by TFYS 1 day ago
Comment by AndrewThrowaway 2 hours ago
Comment by temp8830 21 hours ago
Oh, sure, you aren't a slave. You can't be bought and sold like property. But try going a few months without a paycheck and tell me how that goes. And if you happened to get lucky at some point and escaped wage slavery - you have to be cognizant of the fact that most didn't, and never will, by design.
Modern wage slavery vs whatever they had in Mesopotamia is just details of the perks that the owners decide to hand out.
Comment by throwaway77385 1 day ago
If productivity goes up, something has to give. We either work less or we earn more.
If productivity goes up and we work the same amount of time for the same amount of money (and let's not kid ourselves, if anything we'll end up working more time for less money), the social contract has been broken.
I don't care how rich some outlier becomes, so long as it isn't at the sacrifice of our own self-actualisation. But that is exactly what is (and has been since the 70s) occurring. That trend is unlikely to reverse and it won't lead anywhere good.
Comment by oliwarner 1 day ago
Wealth grants power. Opinions from money matter gain greater reach and traction, and these very quickly turn into influence and power. The current US administration clearly shows how wielding power for your own ends gives you money. It's a toxic cycle that rewards grift instead of work.
You don't care, but this is a serious problem for society because it's a negative aspiration. Don't be good, don't try hard, just be rich or die a peasant.
But the peasants have limited appetites for gruel and work when all they see is grift and abuse. They revolted until old money stopped stopped demanding fealty. Will the new masters learn before we peasants eat the rich?
Comment by temp8830 21 hours ago
Comment by lithocarpus 21 hours ago
So I agree with your sarcasm and I also agree with the parent comment that the current admin is doing a better job "clearly showing" how this works to everyone.
Comment by temp8830 10 hours ago
The only problem is it's causing people to focus on the wrong thing (us vs them, D vs R) instead of the oligarchs who continue to line their pockets (and by the way do not get re-elected every 4 years).
Comment by triceratops 18 hours ago
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Comment by FranzFerdiNaN 23 hours ago
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
It’s not like they are using their wealth on frivolous consumption. Which means redistribution would only change who controls the investment and not the actual consumption patterns of people. Implication is that poor people will consume the same as before after redistribution with perhaps some extra assets. So nothing materially changes other than some security. Poor people will continue to consume the same as before.
Bigger problem is it’s not so clear that redistribution is necessarily a good thing because I feel the people who made money are more likely to make better decisions on their own companies. I don’t know how companies would fare if for example Amazon were redistributed and run like some public company.
Comment by triceratops 18 hours ago
It's unclear what you mean by "redistribution".
> I feel the people who made money are more likely to make better decisions on their own companies
The majority of publicly-listed companies aren't majority owned by their founders. They're still focused on profits and being competitive.
Instead of "redistribution" the way you imagine it (central planning), what if it was more like a sovereign wealth fund?
The government owns shares in all companies, like an index fund. It acts like a normal institutional investor. In fact I wouldn't mind contracting out the management of these holdings to a sober company like Vanguard. And dividends from these holdings are used to reduce income taxes. Stop penalizing people for working and earning more.
Comment by m463 1 day ago
Comment by boh 1 day ago
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
2. private equity is a necessary evil that tries to make something out of companies that never had a good future anyway. not a lot of billionaire wealth is in PE. in fact pension firms are one of the largest stakeholders in PE which means the common people have stake in them too. what is your take on that?
3. i want other people to succeed too - our society is built such that any rando can convince YC and get funding.
Comment by seventytwo 1 day ago
There is nothing “free market” about this. There is no equitable or efficient destitution of resources when this kind of thing happens - and it will always happen, because it is an inevitability.
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
but i don't think redistribution can materially make people's lives better.
Comment by throwawayqqq11 1 day ago
How could you miss these 2 elephants?
Comment by samdoesnothing 1 day ago
Comment by throwawayqqq11 1 day ago
I think you should look into modern monetary theory, MMT.
Comment by simianwords 23 hours ago
Comment by throwawayqqq11 11 hours ago
What is money and where does it come from today?
You often see talking heads, arguing about future policies and the, usually conservative guy, argues against social spending with "where the money should come from." This implies that money must be earned before you can spend it. This take is not just blatantly false, when you look at the private sector (eg. big mergers entirely financed by credit), its even more false for states that have a special/privileged role in the economic system.
Other, usually conservative, political projects barely get publicly challenged on the financial level. I am asking you again, what happens, when a giant bill, eg. for the iraq/afghan war, has to be paid, what does a state do? How does it work? Budget bills enforce what, where?
... they force a financial gov.dept. (dont know which one in the US) to just spend that money for a project, that budget bill authorizes. To do so they manage their own assets (taxpayer money) but they are also capable of taking on debt from private lenders via bonds or from banks as credits. So, by the brush of a pencil, there can be enough money to finance anything you wish for! There really is no upper bound when your country has monetary autonomy and/or has good credit rating, but where does this debt come from?
In the case of bonds, the answer is easy, private buyers spent their existing money and hand it over to you. The case for banks is much more interesting and systemicly relevant, because banks also have a privileged position.
Private banks have the ability to *create* debt/money from nothing (so does the central bank), since there is no backing of gold anymore. Private banks are required by law to hold maybe 10% of their credit activas as own capital reserve, but once their credit is out there it might become another banks asset, that now can lend out 9x of that value again. You can repeat that process indefinitely to get an infinite money supply.
This is the current world we live in. Money is debt, created by privileged institutions, handed out to privileged lenders. (And on all of it ticks interest!) When ever i hear someone like you, bringing the "government printing press" argument, i cringe internally, because private banks have the same ecomically vital ability and with the exception of banking/market laws and profitability, totally unchecked.
The scarcity of money only applies to the unprivileged/poor. And only corrupt or clueless politicans consider their countries finances as the finances of a regular low-income household. The ever increasing private wealth is enabled by ever increasing state debt, which is not a bad thing in and off itself! Rich people are not really the problem, unless unjustly earned, the development of wealth is!
I want to challenge your zero-sum thinking, of that classical monetaristic theory, that doesnt really capture the true nature of money. Modern monetary theroy, MMT, tries to do just that.
In MMT you have money sources and sinks. Ideally, a state or central bank is in control of how much money is created as debt and how much of it is paid back and vanishes *via taxation*. This creation and annihilation of money is out of balance for decades now!
Your question
> Where does the new money come from?
focuses on the source-side, which i explained broadly above, but is pretty much irrelevant today, because we have created enough money already in the past. The sink-side is politically and societally much more pressing, because having this gigantic wealth concentration, almost totally detached from and without any proportion to the real economy, with ticking interests and outside of public control, is like a hostage sitation. We need ever more money to keep our society up, but fiscal hawks keep reminding us, that we are not in charge of it.
Traders call it a "correction", when expectations meet reality and the stocks fall and technically and in the case of the US (as other countries too), such a correction is long overdue. GDP and stock markets go up while public spending and quality of live for the many go down. All enabled by banking deregulation and public/gov. retreat out of that domain of power, so the parasites can keep their unsustainable party rolling by throwing around funny money. And all the while, right-wing internet brainlets throw up something like "governments cant be responsible with money" or "we have no money for that very-needed-thing". This bullshit reaches back to reagan/thatcher, where this imo deliberate attack on fiscal public souvereignity originated. MMT is highly controversial in economic academia because this acadmic field is an exceptional joke (see their "nobel" price or that they still have no reliant model for crashes) and because MMT flips the existing power structure upside down, simply by highlighting the dynamic nature of uncapped money and the importance of proportional sinks/taxation.
> If poor people are spending more now then someone has to spend less. Who is it?
This implies that heavy taxation on the super rich will impact their spending behavior. I dont think this will be the case but even if, it will be totally worth it to keep the social fabric alive.
My depiction is probably grossly inaccurate but i think the broad strokes are true.
Comment by lovich 1 day ago
I disagree.
What proof do you have that the random homeless guy and a kid graduating Stanford that was paid for by their parents, can convince YC to get funding?
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
i don't think redistribution is the best way to achieve it (for the same reasons i mentioned above).
Comment by lovich 1 day ago
Then don't make claims about facts. You sound like someone trying to say the law treats everyone equally because both Elon Musk and Crazy Joe the homeless guy, are both barred from stealing bread.
Comment by hobs 1 day ago
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
Comment by hobs 1 day ago
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
assuming billionaires spend .1% of their wealth on frivolous purchases - you would net a one time amount of around 20 billion dollars. you can't do anything with this let alone save poverty. if you could then you can simply ask the government to move 20 billion around. they have tried it and it doesn't work.
Comment by llbbdd 1 day ago
Comment by lovich 1 day ago
There is no functional difference between a handful of plutocrats deciding capital allocation and a handful of monarchs deciding capital allocation. If you are pro capitalism you should be against letting wealth, and the associated decision power, accumulate in a few individuals
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
China is a good example - they had something like a monarch allocating capital throughout the country and setting prices. Even they realised it is not scalable.
Comment by seventytwo 1 day ago
Thank you, omnipotent billionaires, for your generosity and grace!
Comment by antinomicus 1 day ago
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago
Comment by seventytwo 1 day ago
Comment by simianwords 1 day ago