Where are you supposed to go if you don't care about growth?

It sounds like this person has a hobby that they want to get paid to do.

Which is fine, if you can find a way to make it happen.

But for the majority of us, work means work. It's not always aligned with your own interests, it can feel like drudgery, and we accept the uncomfortable reality that our labor is probably making somebody else richer than it's making us.

I'm a fan of cooperatives, where at least you know that you have part ownership over your endeavors. But even then, you often need to work to satisfy clients and customers, rather than to satisfy your own interests.

Ultimately, I've learned to separate my hobby interest in programming and my work. I accept that work will always feel like work, but a few things (like good coworkers) can make a big difference. I try to make the experience tolerable for myself and my coworkers, and then I do what I really love on the side.

Sounds like the author is experiencing disillusion with the working world. (Not surprised to see that happening soon after their graduation. I had a similar experience myself.)

Here’s a parable that seems to illustrate what it looks like to find fulfillment in one’s work.[1] It helped me see the world differently.

> Three bricklayers are asked: “What are you doing?” The first says, “I am laying bricks.” The second says, “I am building a church.” And the third says, “I am building the house of God.” The first bricklayer has a job. The second has a career. The third has a calling.

And the trick is - from the outside, each performs the same work. But how each person views their work determines how much fulfillment they derive from it (and whether they succeed at reaching their long term goals).

Rather than searching for some magical job that fulfills you in all the ways you're not now, I would suggest focusing on how to make your current job more fulfilling first. Craft your role around the pieces of the work that move you.

If you can’t do that, no new role will fill that yearning, that emptiness, for you. You’ll just be searching your whole life for something that doesn’t exist, until you eventually give up.

Sure, a new job might be more interesting to you and might fit you better - for a little while - but all jobs, no matter how exciting they sound, are still jobs. They still have sucky parts that drain you and disillusion you and will make you miserable if you let them. And you need to learn how to persevere through that to find something to pull you out of it.

What I’m saying is: it might not be a job problem… it might be a you problem.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8663762-three-bricklayers-a...

I’ll put in a plug for nonprofits. In the U.S. there are thousands of them and they all need tech workers of some kind. Some have digital products like web applications and mobile apps. Some just have a Wordpress site and basic IT needs. In any case it is probably not going to be cutting edge tech.

But aligning with values might be easier since that is what a nonprofit is all about. It’s an organization that is going all-in on one particular specific set of values, to the exclusion of commercial goals like making profit for owners or shareholders.

Which means that they also don’t pay as well (nearly as well) as private big tech companies. If nothing else, working at a nonprofit will help you realize how important money vs mission is to you, in a very personal way. You’ll either say “I can live on this” or “this sucks, I can’t stand being underpaid.”

Note that not all nonprofits are charities. There are thousands of trade associations, chambers of commerce, economic development councils, etc. in the U.S. And of course all sorts of political committees and orgs across the spectrum.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote that an aspiring writer should take any writing job he or she can get. A hack job will at least keep the creative wheels turning. I think the same applies to software development jobs. Take one where you can learn something, hone your chops. Doesn't have to be your passion, because turning an abstract conception into working software is intrinsically satisfying to someone who appreciates that particular form of magic.

Do your own projects on the side and keep your antenna peeled for other opportunities more in line with your own life goals.

There are a bunch of mid-sized companies that

* are mostly B2B oriented

* are (usually) private

* have a healthy balance sheet

* have their own niche so they don't have to fight for survival but don't have to aggressively expand either

if you know where to look.

The caveat is that they probably are not hiring many people right now, and the bar is not low at all (even though most employees are mediocre). In the current market, many people want to work at those companies.

A mature company that makes something real, like a manufacturing business. A lot of stuff being made depends on a combination of hardware and software. The software side can't grow exponentially because the hardware can't, and because it doesn't experience the same level of investor interest as the "tech" industry. Yet it serves a useful purpose and often brings unexpected but interesting problems to solve.

I work at a company in the American Midwest that makes measurement equipment. A friend programs robots for a high tech factory. We're both musicians (and cyclists) and play in a band together.

What other industries but tech do any of us bother to talk about finding jobs that align with our values? (Outside of avoiding illegal or immoral work.) I think we were incredibly fortunate before ZIRP went away that we had much greater opportunity to choose companies that appealed to us.

I can relate to, never cared about any of circus around job applications, unfortunely we are not expected to say we do work for money, we have to want to change the world, leave our mark in the universe.

> My first thought is to lean towards small companies that are not looking to grow. They are hard to find, and usually have no time/energy to "train" me.

If they're not looking to grow themselves then why would they invest in growing you?

You have two options.

One is bootstrap. Do what you care about, and make a dent. If all you want is to be able to sustain a frugal life then this takes less effort, but not that much less than earning far more.

The other option is to join a (true) non profit. Some of them do seek growth, but some don't.

This seems like a very negative (and wrong?) perspective. Why do you think you’ll earn the same in 5 years? Do you think you’ve learned everything you can about software and business? Companies aren’t hiring you just to complete a specific task that they have right now.

My advice is to move out of any big cities to some place with cheap rent and get a job unrelated to programming. Be a plumber, electrician or something and work for yourself, not for some company, so you can adjust your own work hours. Do programming as a hobby.

An analogy I like to use is that I enjoy painting - I've become pretty good at landscapes, portraits, still life... and what most employers are looking for is someone who can paint walls, because that's what they or their customers need. Computers to us are a hobby - for most others they are a tool; if you're going to earn money this way then you need to focus more on delivering value to the people who pay you, and try to find someone who will reward you in line with the value you provide. That usually means first and foremost delivering the required functionality within the required time frame; technical excellence takes (usually a distant) second place, unless you're lucky enough to work on something really interesting.

So what do you do, as an enthusiast? The way I have survived is to make the work interesting in small ways - try different techniques, libraries, algorithms; it depends how much time pressure you're under, as to how much leeway you have. Take advantage of training opportunities - there is always a lot to learn, even if you think you're pretty good already, and more skills improves your chances of landing better jobs in the future. Take pride in your work, even if no-one else notices.

Yes, the corporate life is a grind, but so are most jobs, and at least you get a comfortable chair. Make the best of it or do something else.

Maybe a government job

I work for a non-profit, and have found a very good place where we are treated well and where I can work on mostly interesting stuff mostly in the ways that seem best to me (not all non-profits are like this, for sure) -- and also make probably 1/2 to 1/3rd (or less?) what some of you make.

Come work in Local Government - never mind growth, we're managing steady decline. Or mismanaging.

Of all the soul-sucking jobs out there, software dev is one of the better ones I would say. You're getting paid to think, to tell machines what to do. There's a huge portion of the workforce that are paid to become machine-like themselves.

I really want to adopt the world view of this developer, but the more I read it, the more this comes across as someone relatively new to a particular industry who really doesn’t care about his job. I can empathize with part of this - who doesn’t want to live in the rat race, but this feels entitled more then questioning. That said, if his boss has a yacht, maybe there is a more money at this company then I assumed.

So where do you go, if you don’t care about growth? it feels like a government job (especially in Europe), a academic, or a factory line worker in Southeast Asia might be a better fit then software developer.

>I'm in a position where I don't have enough years of experience to comfortably choose where I work. I'm basically forced to join a company as a junior and "climb the ladder". I still don't know why I would care to.

To earn more?

>In 5 years I will still earn the same and my boss will be sitting comfortably in his (already bought) yacht.

If you have no earnings progression in 5 years as someone who graduated in 2024 you must be doing something VERY wrong, no matter the field.

The author will be embarrassed to recall this 10 years from now.

Anyway, to me it seems that the best strategy is to gather 2-3 years of experience and only then start job hunting for real. Yes, the current situation sucks, but so does the job market. I wouldn't have advised hopping after just a year even back in the ZIRP days, much less nowadays.

Also bold move to publish such a post and publicly advertise who one is working for. That's going to result in snarky comments about yachts from whoever is up there at the very least.

I see people grow in two directions. Some grow upward, becoming manager, director, VP, etc. Others grow outward, branching into new technologies and disciplines, while remaining an IC.

Regardless of which direction you grow, I think give. enough time, the quality of your work will speak for itself.

I've watched too many people try to run the rat race of moving up the later. Staying at a job/role for only 18 months just to hop to the next thing. They lack depth in their area and eventually bottom out completely.

I understand that the author is struggling in the current job market. I can't even imagine how hard it is right now with entry-level positions.

However, dismissing the overhead associated with such positions is a very simplistic view. It isn't about writing "bad code" or "good code". Rather, it is about solving complex tasks and maintaining huge systems – that's the real challenge. Hands-on experience or proper guidance can save you a lot of time.

I know it's not the point of the article, but man do I hate when websites break default functionality. In this case, the ability to select text.

This is a recurring theme. Someone comes to the realisation that the 'endless growth' model is an unfair way to organise civilisation.

It's heartwarming to see so many people come to the realisation that endless consumption/growth/production makes us miserable.

The issue is that we all exist under capitalism, unfortunately until it's gone, we're forced to live within it.

So: OP wants to grow, but at his own pace and in his own way. He values transparency and autonomy. He doesn't mention salary as being particularly important, but does want a good work/life balance.

I wonder if he's considered a job as a developer in the Dutch government?

Sounds like you have no motivation and want to coast along. You can only do that in software with the right skills. You have to develop skill - you know, “grow.”

If you like stagnant work, you have to find a company requiring that kind of work. Probably not in the software industry.

You're saying the quiet part out loud. It's fine to believe such things, but you have to pretend not to, while using growth for your own interests: demanding more money for some work, or completing the work faster and using the free time for other purposes (entertainment, working another job, etc).

> If rent wasn't an issue I'd be working full-time on open-source and spend my spare time cycling.

I feel like this is a really detached piece on the realities of work and capitalism. Did a decade of prosperity in software industry made people forget what work is?

In capitalism (I mean in a job) you are paid to build what others want you to build. You are selling your time and effort. Either that or you build your own thing and monetize it. If "rent wasn't an issue" most people would paint, dance make art, explore, play, create. But for most people, rent, food and healthcare are the issue...

Go look at your state government employment website. Strongly recommend the work environment if you have a satisficer rather than maximizer outlook.

My recommendation: find and cultivate vision, then view the $JOB not as separate from _your_ work towards _your_ vision, but part of it. Its the part that funds you enough to continue to progress on your own plan.

Here's how I think of it: If I were a painter, I would paint, explore and experiment in my free time because its what I want to do. Maybe, as a painter, my vision is to improve the state of the art of some kind of dye or brush or canvas and that is my vision. But! That does not mean that I cannot be commissioned to work on a mural or put on a retainer for a museum or something else. The only difference is that in the latter you are being explicitly payed by a patron to produce something they want. And furthermore I need that work, I work for myself but still need projects to bring in money to do the work I care about.

I view my software dev as the same thing. I have a vision of where I want to be, what I want to do, and how I want to contribute to advance the state of the art of the things I care about. I do not care, and am unconcerned about the corporate needs of the thing I care about, its for me and for people like me. My $JOB is just one part of that larger goal and the path I walk towards that goal. Its an important part, sure, and I show up and give a good faith effort and my expert opinion, but its not the part that enriches me as much as my personal stuff. The distinction is that the $JOB is not separate, its a necessary and important part of my plan to execute on my vision.

Once you have vision I think you'll find its much easier to find similar people who want to work on the same things you want to work on. And I think you'll find it much easier to tolerate capitalist minutiae because you will reduce the things you need from $JOB.

government jobs or at state-owned companies might be your only choice.

Or maybe landing on a lucky spot of a run of the mill consultancy company where you're left at god's will until you retire. Their attrition is so high layoffs are rare, at least where I live (YMMV)

It's easy to have strong feelings about this post because, well, we all have to pay bills and often times aren't the biggest fans of the means (work) we have to do that. My immediate reaction, like many here, is to just go "well tough luck kid".

But I'd like to offer some sympathy. I certainly have grappled with thoughts like these and have also been guilty of posting a rant on HN at a moment when I've been down!

I do wonder if part of this is influenced by the AI craze that has companies substituting junior engineers for LLMs and how hard it is to get hired fresh out of university these days. I do feel for those who genuinely want to grow and become better engineers since it does seem like companies are betting less and less on developing young talent.

Then there's the whole philosophical discussion about work and meaning and everything. Thoughts around this are certainly very present in our minds during our 20s (P.S. I'm still in this decade of my life too). There are many alternative paths, but they often aren't for everyone. I know people who live with very little, and don't consider steady work a high priority at all. Many of them are happy, but most of us couldn't cope with the lifestyle. You then have the path of starting your own thing, but that path is usually more painful and terrible for your finances too.

It's all tradeoffs. It sucks, it hurts. And I'm sorry that the market is terrible right now for those starting out. Good luck.

Working on in-house software can be satisfying: no marketing BS, work closely with users in developing software that helps them perform their job, rarely have unrealistic schedules or demands.

It says a lot about HN that this got flagged off the front page in under an hour

> If rent wasn't an issue I'd be working full-time on open-source and spend my spare time cycling.

Story of life. Everyone is looking for a middle way between an acceptable work and money.

In the order hand, he’s the mythical programmer who is passionate with tech and doesn’t care about money.

Just lie, like we all do.

Sure, but one could imagine that there are people working at the supermarket who would also rather do personal stuff or go cycling. But there they are, serving you.

I've just spent the last 15 years working in academia—not as an academic myself, but supporting them as, essentially, a satellite IT department of one within the Psychology department at my small university.

They expect me to generally keep up with my skills, and learn new things as the needs of their research dictate, but not to be constantly upskilling, constantly pushing for promotions, because...there aren't any. It's a singular position with zero logical progression from or to it.

The pay is definitely substandard (and I've told them, now that I'm moving to Ireland, that they will need to fix that to attract anyone remotely near my calibre), and the rural location means there's not a lot to do in the vicinity, but the benefits are good, the job security is fantastic, the faculty are wonderful people, and the environment is, overall, very chill and friendly.

In a world of lead actors, there’s nothing wrong with being a career supporting actor.

Same is true for software. There’s so many smaller, rural companies that lack the knowledge. There’s so many out of the box opportunities to add a little IoT into the field. There’s so many little wins to be had NOT following the boomer path of career servitude to an omnipotent leader Boss. You don’t have to go down the that road, you can always pivot or be supporting those efforts.

Europe.

Ok as you say yourself, you need work to pay the bills. That’s fine. Now what you want to look for is not what a company does, but who your teammates are. You’re going to spend a lot of time working, so the most important is that you like the people and people like you, especially if you don’t want to play the corporate game.

If you’re working with people who are fun to be with, it doesn’t matter if your work consists in circling numbers like they do at Lumon.

Work is not fun in itself, that’s why they’re different words. As my boss used to say: if you enjoy it, it’s not work. But if you can have fun while doing the work, it’s a lot better.

So yes go find nice people who are fun to be around, avoid the assholes and big corp and you’ll be fine.

Usually smaller companies are better, ones that have focus on good stuff, like a company that makes toys, or medical things.

What I chose to do is go to small finance firms. I get much much less than the CEO, but much more than I would anywhere else. That allows me to free up some time to do other stuff. There are a lot of nice people in finance (mostly cause everyone is well paid so noone really complains). 2 problems: sometimes people in finance are too money-driven, and that can be annoying, and the learning curve is steep.

That isn't realistic at all. Customers change and their needs change with them. Sometimes customers die. Products that stay the same change their fit over time and eventually fall away. A business that is not growing is dying. That is okay. It can be fine to let things fall away when they have run their course, but some prefer to endure. But the absolute fact remains that a business that is not growing is dying.

It seems like what you are perceiving is a common market delusion. An unfortunate fact of hiring is those workers who are not employed and satisfied are often less experienced and skilled than those who are well placed and not looking. The same logic applies the other way around to companies. Those who are looking to hire juniors who haven't yet found their way are often companies that lack a solid center and just want to squeeze some money out of whatever customers they can find using whatever tool is at hand.

With the current state of things if your needs are truly modest then there is a good chance that you can get by with some independent offering. Find something you are interested in and make it work for someone willing to pay for it. Make sure to lean more into sales and actually making things work for customers than the engineer tendency to envision mechanisms and focus entirely on that. This way you can set the balance for yourself, and I can absolutely guarantee that you will experience the realities of growth or death up close, though in a more personal way that you can take control of and manage for yourself using criteria that have meaning for you.

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