Uber is turning data about trips and takeout into insights for marketers
Posted by sethops1 1 day ago
Comments
Comment by dfxm12 1 day ago
Comment by teeray 1 day ago
Comment by quietbritishjim 1 day ago
So now, to justify removing someone from your pool of advertisees, they don't just need to pay what could be made by advertising to them; they need to pay for what could be made to advertise to them and (unwittingly) several poorer people.
Comment by trillic 19 hours ago
I also click them often. $$$$
Comment by matheusmoreira 1 day ago
Comment by darth_avocado 1 day ago
“If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product”
It’s
“If you don’t pay for a product, you are a less valuable product than if you’d pay for the product”
Comment by zamadatix 1 day ago
Comment by dylan604 1 day ago
Comment by monerozcash 1 day ago
Comment by SR2Z 1 day ago
Comment by monerozcash 1 day ago
The answer here isn't really obvious, but I'd suspect that in many cases this is not a very attractive demographic to advertise to.
Comment by SR2Z 18 hours ago
This demographic is inherently attractive simply because they can spend money.
Comment by neom 1 day ago
On the wealthy side, you don't need to be that rich to pay not to get ads.
Comment by landgenoot 1 day ago
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Comment by neom 1 day ago
Comment by carlosjobim 1 day ago
So a fancy way to say that if you have 10 dollars?
Comment by teeray 1 day ago
Comment by carlosjobim 1 day ago
Comment by csa 1 day ago
Thank you for the laugh.
While this may be true on an individual level, it’s wildly not true in aggregate.
The first dollar is hardest to get. Once someone has shown a propensity to spend on pretty much anything, they become much more valuable as an advertising target.
Comment by carlosjobim 22 hours ago
That's like thinking that a girl is likely to sleep with everybody because she has a boyfriend. "She's already sleeping with one guy, so why shouldn't she sleep with everybody?".
Of course your current customers are excellent targets for your own upsells and your other products. But not much else.
Comment by Cpoll 1 day ago
Comment by rbalicki 1 day ago
Anyway, the devil is in the implementation details here, but this doesn't strike me as a common case.
Comment by goalieca 1 day ago
Comment by charles_f 1 day ago
I'm not paying crave anymore.
Comment by oniony 1 day ago
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Comment by oniony 22 hours ago
Comment by mystraline 1 day ago
That technically is also competition. And if the market offers garbage for money, but the illegal market is free and better, go with the illegal choice.
You'll be treated like a criminal either way with DRM. So... Yeah.
Comment by charles_f 1 day ago
Comment by Grisu_FTP 1 day ago
Even if you take away the money a vpn costs, you still can have a decent vps with decent storage.
If you only need storage, even better. Found an offer for a "Storage VPS" with low hardware specs and 2TB of HDDs for 10€/monthly
Comment by dylan604 1 day ago
Comment by charles_f 1 day ago
Comment by toomuchtodo 1 day ago
Comment by tdeck 1 day ago
Comment by hypeatei 1 day ago
Comment by ryandrake 1 day ago
Comment by hypeatei 1 day ago
It gets trotted on a lot here because the overarching narrative on HN is that regulation is an answer to everything when it's easier to just... not use the thing if you don't like it. Rather than creating a mountain of regulations that only big business can comply with, I think it's better to choose what you do with your money as a consumer.
Comment by array_key_first 1 day ago
In most places, your options for a taxi service are Uber or go fuck yourself. That's how they're able to get away with their price gouging, privacy recklessness, and share-cropped labor.
Free market dynamics only work if you are in a free market. We're not, there's one player, and they won the market by literally just cheating and breaking the law. Sorry, sorry, "disrupting".
Comment by skeeter2020 1 day ago
Comment by hypeatei 1 day ago
For streaming, I'm not sure since I don't watch much, and YT+adblocker is sufficient for me. Again, not giving them money is enough of a signal if you don't find the product good.
Comment by godzillabrennus 1 day ago
Comment by pixl97 1 day ago
What if I don't have enough money to buy something and I want it anyway!
Comment by awad 1 day ago
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Comment by skeeter2020 1 day ago
Comment by barbazoo 1 day ago
> It uses LiveRamp's clean room technology, which lets companies aggregate their data in a privacy-safe environment, without sharing or seeing each other's raw or personally identifiable customer information.
It's apparently not that they directly sell your PII at least.
Comment by netdevphoenix 1 day ago
Comment by AznHisoka 1 day ago
And if you are paying… you’re still the product as well.
Comment by matheusmoreira 1 day ago
Comment by thenthenthen 1 day ago
Comment by qwerpy 1 day ago
- Public websites are chock full of ads
- Downloading a file often means hopping through several redirects (each of which is an ad) and sometimes even having to "complete an offer" to get the final link
- Private websites have some affiliate deal with VPN providers. "We did the research, this one is the best, if you subscribe through this link you will get some perks on our website".
Of all the kinds of ads out there, that last one is the least objectionable to me. They don't force it on you, it doesn't clog up the important parts of the site, and they supposedly do some research to pick the best provider to affiliate with. I "never" click on ads but this one worked on me.
Comment by malfist 1 day ago
Comment by qwerpy 1 day ago
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Comment by dylan604 1 day ago
Comment by qwerpy 1 day ago
Although if they did somehow deploy their constellation as a legible ad, I wouldn't even complain. "Drink Coke" spelled out with a hundred satellites would be hilarious.
Comment by dylan604 1 day ago
Comment by gremlinunderway 1 day ago
There just needs to be a blanket-law where your data is considered every-bit as intellectual property as a piece of copyrighted media and for there to be consent established to sell or give your data to a third-party there needs to be an active exchange of payment, credit or services that is opt-in only, not opt-out from an intentionally obfuscated EULA update email.
Require active opt-in and consent along with a clear set of goods/services/payment, and active simple on-demand revocation with strict timelines, and you could have companies actually properly incentivizing users to sell them their own personal data instead of it just being harvested.
Unfortunately too many libertarian nutjobs out here think that the market here will magically fix all issues.
Comment by devilbunny 1 day ago
I'll see your libertarian market nutjobs and raise you reflexive "regulation will fix it" liberals (I don't really know the right term here, but I guess it's the one that fits most closely with US politics for the last 60+ years). Neither group has much room in its worldview for the simple fact that some people are just jerks and will abuse any system.
Regulation can be done well, but doing so in a way that doesn't just hand the entire segment to the current incumbents is hard and regulatory capture isn't just something market worshipers conjured out of thin air.
Comment by efsavage 1 day ago
Comment by dragonwriter 1 day ago
No, it was quality of reception, especially for people who were farther from (or had inconvenient terrain between them and) broadcast stations; literally the only thing on early capable was exactly the normal broadcast feed from the covered stations, which naturally included all the normal ads.
Premium add-on channels that charged on top of cable, of which I think HBO was the first, had being ad free among their selling points, but that was never part of the basic cable deal.
Comment by flyinghamster 1 day ago
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Comment by SoftTalker 1 day ago
HBO was the first offering that didn't have ads during the show.
Comment by bluGill 1 day ago
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Comment by dfxm12 1 day ago
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
People on this website are too small a fraction of society to ever move the needle. My point is that it doesn't matter what people on this website want with respect to privacy, in our capitalist democratic society it will never happen unless most people want it.
The reality right now is that most people don't want it.
Comment by dfxm12 1 day ago
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
Comment by squigz 1 day ago
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
If you frame it as a negative thing with no downsides for agreeing with you, of course people will agree. But that's not the reality.
Comment by ajbourg 1 day ago
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
What's the solution then?
Comment by skeeter2020 1 day ago
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
"Would you pay extra for a guarantee your personal data is kept private?"
vs "Would you pay extra for a guarantee your data isn't sold for marketing purposes?"
...and I would guess the first would have a higher "yes" rate, although still low. But I also expect a chunk of people would ask you to define "private" before answering the first question...One might argue "private" implies more than can truly be promised, for example no US company can promise to ignore subpoenas and actually follow through.
I'd say it mirrors for patriotism: "do you support $OUR_COUNTRY" will get more "yes" responses than almost any more specific question about support for anything tangible. Precisely because it's sort of meaningless and unobjectionable... (well except in the US, where I'm sure it's correlated with whether or not one's favored party is in power)
Comment by squigz 1 day ago
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
Comment by dylan604 1 day ago
That's your quote as I read it in case some editing happens. There's no caveat in your original post that you are claiming now. You've moved the goal posts. As you originally stated, I agree with all of the follow up comments to it that you are now trying to expand on your original comment. Maybe that's what you always meant but just left out of the original. It happens. But now you're being obstinate about it in a way that doesn't look good.
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
Comment by dylan604 1 day ago
Comment by gremlinunderway 1 day ago
This is how we have a free-market to begin with. You need enforcement and structures in place so people will actually trust any of this crap. Instead, we have the nutjob early 90's cyber libertarians thinking this will all be magically fixed with just magical freedom and the invisible hand fixing everything.
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
Comment by pavel_lishin 1 day ago
I'd wager that just by the virtue of being commenters on HN, we're already outliers.
Comment by criddell 1 day ago
Comment by ssl-3 1 day ago
It isn't out-of-keeping in this kind of company for a person to start discussions about personal data privacy. In fact: We chat about this stuff here all the time.
But in reality: The number of discussions I've had about personal data privacy and monetization face-to-face with people that I did not meet through a computer network, or bring up myself is exactly 1.
It's thus my observation that most people in the world care about this issue approximately...never.
(The reason they don't care may be that they don't know enough to even begin to question whether the people behind their air fryer, genealogical DNA service, garage door opener, and food delivery system may have ulterior motives.
But guesses about root causation are, at best, both tangential and broadly inconsequential. We can guess and figure and re-figure and even prove theories until the cows come home.
And it doesn't matter.
They didn't care yesterday, they still don't care today while I write this, and they will continue to not care tomorrow.)
Comment by gremlinunderway 1 day ago
This narrative is incredibly toxic and honestly a very antisocial viewpoint of people as if they are all just stupid sheep who deserve to be exploited.
There's zero reason why its unfair for a person to both object to advertising because of the annoyance (because it is annoying) AND for a person to not want to be digitally surveilled endlessly without their consent.
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
I don't disagree with you there.
> This narrative is incredibly toxic and honestly a very antisocial viewpoint of people as if they are all just stupid sheep who deserve to be exploited.
The people get what they vote for, whether or not its what they deserve. The only way to move the needle on this is to educate people. Telling people they're "stupid sheep" for not wanting the thing you think they should want is not typically a winning strategy, in my experience.
> There's zero reason why its unfair for a person to both object to advertising because of the annoyance (because it is annoying) AND for a person to not want to be digitally surveilled endlessly without their consent.
I'm simply saying I think most people care more about the first thing.
Comment by benced 1 day ago
To give an industry that's a counterexample to the "they add ads and don't make things cheaper", look at groceries. It's a terrible, single-digit percentage margin business but they sell everything from placement in catalogue to whether the product is in a convenient spot on the shelf. That's a clear case where ads make it _cheaper_ for consumers.
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
I don't follow... it certainly improves the grocer's margins, but how does that do anything at all for the consumer?
Comment by benced 1 day ago
Comment by jcalvinowens 1 day ago
I don't think you were unclear, that's what I understood you to be saying.
Surely, the grocer just pockets the extra ad money? Never in my life have I seen a for-profit corporation voluntarily charge a lower price than the market will bear because they increased their margin by other means.
The ads are also inherently shitty to the producers: they all have to spend money on the grocer's ads now, because if they don't, their competitors will. If you look at it that way, the ads are almost extortion.
Comment by monerozcash 1 day ago
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Comment by lotsofpulp 1 day ago
They have also advertised for the Starbucks in thr Target stores long before when you go to pickup something.
Comment by neom 1 day ago
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Comment by netdevphoenix 1 day ago
Comment by mattlutze 1 day ago
Any company that has unique or rare data is compelled to do things with it. Those that don’t either can’t figure out how or explicitly reject the reward function of contemporary capitalism. We should really expect those deviations to be the exception.
Comment by FireBeyond 1 day ago
Comment by underlipton 1 day ago
In an ideal world, you'd instead have drivers assigned to either particular neighborhoods or particular restaurants, allowing for order-stacking and predictable routes. Bonus for set-time daily deliveries (get your order in before 6 or have to wait until 9). Bigger bonus for set neighborhood drop-off points (like those consolidated mailboxes, but warming compartments). Anything more bespoke would cost extra.
Unfortunately, the balance of inefficient operations, decreasing competition, and "line go up" is that prices have to increase.
Comment by abdullahkhalids 1 day ago
At the same time you have processes like increasing suburbanization and development of even more car-centric infrastructure, which makes houses and restaurants even further from each other, and makes cheaper delivery vehicles like motorbikes infeasible.
Comment by underlipton 1 day ago
Comment by paulddraper 1 day ago
They’re going to sell to marketers for ads I don’t watch?
Comment by micromacrofoot 1 day ago
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Comment by Esophagus4 1 day ago
Surely that is the answer.
Comment by gunt_crusher 1 day ago
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Comment by smeej 19 hours ago
That they haven't monetized it like this when this is how basically everything is monetized and they spent so long burning money hand over fist just boggles my mind.
Comment by zx8080 1 day ago
Comment by Joel_Mckay 1 day ago
I would be more surprised if they kept peoples privacy, as even your credit card company sells the purchase data. =3
Comment by harvey9 1 day ago
Comment by cptnntsoobv 1 day ago
In the case of the Uber app you should be able to turn these off (they are conveniently enabled by default, of course!).
On the iphone it's Setting -> Communication -> Marketing Preferences -> Push notifications.
Comment by Marsymars 1 day ago
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Comment by Esophagus4 1 day ago
Comment by lwhi 1 day ago
I can't imagine any depth they wouldn't dive to, in order to get a morsel to feed on.
Comment by morkalork 1 day ago
1) Hook new drivers with better than average rates before tapering off 2) Take into account the age/model/value of the vehicle and what payments for it would look like in the market and dole out enough to cover costs but not "too much" that they're getting ahead of other drivers
Totally baseless and sourceless hearsay tho. Still, if true, really plays into the image of "there's no depth they won't go".
Comment by underlipton 1 day ago
Comment by gruez 1 day ago
Comment by underlipton 1 day ago
>neither app would send me orders for up to half an hour
>as soon as one had assigned me and order, the other would start sending my multiple per minute
>all of these orders were either comically low-compensation (no tip), a 15-minute-plus drive away from the order I'd just accepted (to areas it had never sent me before), or both
was marked.
Comment by andsoitis 1 day ago
Comment by DennisP 1 day ago
> Uber Intelligence will let advertisers securely combine their customer data with Uber's to help surface insights about their audiences, based on what they eat and where they travel.
So the companies have the identities. It sounds like they're going to be learning something about their customers, the question is just how much detail they'll get.
Comment by zx8080 1 day ago
Comment by malshe 1 day ago
Comment by kotaKat 1 day ago
I’ve got it on less than 6 months.
Comment by code_for_monkey 1 day ago
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Comment by indymike 1 day ago
Comment by squigz 1 day ago
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
Comment by pavel_lishin 1 day ago
Comment by squigz 1 day ago
Privacy is very important. That's why I think sharing of customer data - individual or aggregate - is bad.
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
Aggregating protects privacy when done properly.
It seems pretty obvious to me that sharing individual data is orders of magnitude worse than sharing aggregated data.
If you think they're the same, then you don't seem to value the privacy that aggregation provides.
So what am I misrepresenting about what you said?
I'm tired of false equivalences. One thing that's maybe slightly bad, and another thing that's super-super-bad, aren't equally bad.
Comment by pixl97 1 day ago
When done properly is going a lot of heavy lifting there. Time and time again it's been found most aggregates are not filtered properly and be deanonymized with eaze.
It's not that one is big bad, and one is little bad, it's the little bad can become big bad with a small amount of work by an attacker/company. Then when you add in zero external third party verification of these company claims, you really don't have any reason to believe them.
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
Not really. There are common practices for it. Yes it hits HN when deanonymization can happen at a well-known company, just like it hits HN when there's a security vulnerability that gets patched at a well-known company.
But "it's the little bad can become big bad" is what's doing the heavy lifting in your argument. No, that's not how it works. There's no universe in which aggregate data can be deanonymized to anywhere close to what all of the individual profiles would be. It's a completely false equivalenace, period.
Comment by lwhi 20 hours ago
Comment by squigz 1 day ago
As a completely unrelated aside, I wonder how much social progress is hindered by people alienating people on their own side.
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
It's easy, just admit the two are not the same and move on. You don't need to get defensive about it. "I wonder" how much social progress is hindered by people making wrong statements and then getting defensive about it? Or by making snarky "completely unrelated" asides?
Comment by baggachipz 1 day ago
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Comment by jadyoyster 1 day ago
Comment by pavel_lishin 1 day ago
> New York City has released data of 173m individual taxi trips – but inadvertently made it "trivial" to find the personally identifiable information of every driver in the dataset.
Comment by afarah1 1 day ago
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Comment by the_sleaze_ 1 day ago
https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/special-topics/d...
Comment by wtallis 1 day ago
If you're sharing data for a specific purpose, then it's much easier to limit the data sharing to suit that purpose: omit irrelevant data, aggregate where possible, and anonymize individual data points only when you actually need to share that level of detail.
Comment by kj4211cash 1 day ago
Comment by zkmon 1 day ago
Uber support in India is the most robotic and useless I have ever seen with any vendor. I gave up after fighting for months, just to utilize my wallet amount in other country or get refund. Both were impossible.
Comment by throw58903 1 day ago
Comment by loeg 1 day ago
Comment by nerdponx 1 day ago
Comment by advisedwang 1 day ago
> It uses LiveRamp's clean room technology, which lets companies aggregate their data in a privacy-safe environment, without sharing or seeing each other's raw or personally identifiable customer information.
> A hotel brand could use Uber Intelligence to help identify which restaurants or entertainment venues it might want to partner with for its loyalty program, for example.
Not much details on that "Clean room" but it sounds like the third parties get an environment where they can join their data to ubers and then run aggregate queries, but not actually see individual customer records. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Comment by tgsovlerkhgsel 1 day ago
Consider what will happen every time there is a trade-off to be made between making/keeping the data more useful to the companies involved, and actually upholding the anonymity of the data subjects.
Anonymization is nearly impossible to get right even when you're trying really hard, and this is more likely to be a fig leaf to be able to do things that are illegal by sufficiently obfuscating them.
I hope that if EU customer data is included in this, the EU will have the balls to actually enforce GDPR. Uber is one of the few tech company cases where 2-4% of overall revenue would actually hurt, rather than being a small "tax" on the extra profit made through the illegal use of data.
Comment by keehee 1 day ago
Comment by hgfguj467 1 day ago
Pretty amazing really. They'll even uturn if they are on the other side of the road.
Comment by keehee2 1 day ago
Flatbush Ave and Church Ave in Brooklyn also have a good amount of $1 buses and $1 cabs going up and down the avenue. This is on top of the MTA busses and subway in the area.
Comment by lacoolj 1 day ago
I just realized taxis still exist and most restaurants offer their own delivery service (or pick-up!)
It's been real Uber. GL HF
Comment by Animats 1 day ago
[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/uber-crunches-user...
Comment by everdrive 1 day ago
Comment by like_any_other 1 day ago
Thankfully corporations have proven themselves so trustworthy and benevolent, we don't think twice about giving them the data they used to have to torture out of us. Likewise the governments, that we know are among the buyers [1], are just as beloved and uncontroversial, unlike in the old days.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/14/23759585/odni-spy-report-...
Comment by tanseydavid 1 day ago
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Comment by zouhair 1 day ago
Comment by RandallBrown 1 day ago
Other than getting in a taxi line at the airport, I've never been able to use street hailing as a practical way to get around. There just have never been enough taxis in the places that I've lived.
Comment by kkukshtel 1 day ago
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Comment by keehee 1 day ago
Seriously you want people to use your travel and movement and choice data to make a suggestion list of restaurants for you to order from? How helpless are you?
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
I like good recommendations better than bad recommendations. The value I get is better recommendations.
Like, I literally update the categories of things I'm interested in, in my Google profile, so I get less useless ads.
People complain about bad and useless recommendations and irrelevant ads all the time. Personalization is how you get better ones.
Comment by keehee 1 day ago
How many combinations of the restaurants around you do you think exist and are needed to provide that information? Certainly need Uber guzzling down Terabytes of data to rank the local Chiles over the local Applebees.
Lets be honest, restaurant suggestions aren’t a real problem anyone has.
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
I suspect you don't live in New York City, or another city with a thriving restaurant scene where new places open and old places close all the time and you can't keep track of them all in your head.
Comment by keehee2 1 day ago
If you have problems with restaurant rankings in Nyc you’re not living right.
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
Oh really?
Sometimes you just need a quick decision, whether you're going somewhere with friends at the last second, or yes ordering delivery and just want something that will be one of the better options. Because there isn't 1 Chinese place in your delivery radius, there are 20.
Believe me, I read restaurant blogs and talk to people too. But that's more for stuff I plan in advance, not last-minute decisions in a neighborhood I don't visit often.
So maybe don't be so quick to judge that others aren't "living right", how about?
Comment by Marsymars 1 day ago
Comment by snapcaster 1 day ago
Comment by loeg 1 day ago
Comment by nemomarx 1 day ago
Comment by buellerbueller 1 day ago
Comment by HWR_14 1 day ago
I've never heard any complaint about that except from people who work in adtech.
Comment by crazygringo 1 day ago
In contrast to high-quality ads that are e.g. for a movie you actually want to see.
Comment by keehee 1 day ago
Comment by knollimar 1 day ago
It's going to be a conflict of interest like most ads. It's not optimized for you but toward you
Comment by goopypoop 1 day ago
Comment by buellerbueller 1 day ago
-opaque optimization function over which you have no control and is not tailored to you (but yay you can sort by a few predetermined fields)
-willingness of the recommended to outbid one another for your attention
-companies who have paid some baseline pay-to-play vig
If you want real recommendations, talk to someone who isn't profiting off of you.
Comment by vasco 1 day ago
Comment by landgenoot 1 day ago
Are people suddenly moving more between corp A and corp B? Must be something going on, let's buy the stock.
Suddenly multiple Ubers are dropping off people at a residential building during the night? They probably know each other. Let's flag that as a potential risk.