Synadia and TigerBeetle Pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

Posted by cratermoon 4 days ago

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Comments

Comment by ruuda 4 days ago

> We did have three bugs that would have been prevented by the borrow checker, but these were caught by our fuzzers and online verification. We run a fuzzing fleet of 1,000 dedicated CPU cores 24/7.

Remember people, 10,000 CPU hours of fuzzing can save you 5ms of borrow checking!

(I’m joking, I’m joking, Zig and Rust are both great languages, fuzzing does more than just borrow checking, and I do think TigerBeetle’s choices make sense, I just couldn’t help noticing the irony of those two sentences.)

Comment by matklad 4 days ago

It's not that ironic though --- the number of bugs that were squashed fuzzers&asserts but would have dodged the borrow checker is much, much larger.

This is what makes TigerBeetle context somewhat special --- in many scenarios, security provided by memory safety is good enough, and any residual correctness bugs/panics are not a big deal. For us, we need to go extra N miles to catch the rest of the bugs as well, and DST is a much finer net for those fishes (given static allocation & single threaded design).

Comment by pron 4 days ago

I don't think needing to go "the extra N miles" is that special. Even if security is the only correctness concern - and in lots of cases it isn't, and (some) bugs are a very big deal - memory safety covers only a small portion of the top weaknesses [1].

Mathematically speaking, any simple (i.e. non-dependent) type system catches 0% of possible bugs :) That's not to say it can't be very useful, but it doesn't save a lot of testing/other assurance methods.

[1]: https://cwe.mitre.org/top25/archive/2024/2024_cwe_top25.html Also, spatial safety is more important for security than temporal safety. As far as language guarantees go, Zig and Rust only differ on #8 on the list.

Comment by bikeshaving 4 days ago

I’m guessing they chose $512,000 because “512” is a power of 2 and systems programmers love that sort of shit, but 2^19 is 524,288. I mean $12,288 is not insignificant but it would have been cooler.

Comment by Taek 4 days ago

I'm not sure how many people would recognize 524,288 as a power of 2, but probably many fewer than the number of people who would recognize 512 as a power of 2

Comment by inopinatus 4 days ago

I recommend having instant recognition of all the powers up to 2^24, this has proven very useful over the years e.g. when skimming quickly through a log searching for anomalies, flag patterns etc. If you recite them in sequence twice a day for a couple of weeks, then they’ll stick in your mind for decades. I can say from experience this method also works for the NATO phonetic alphabet, Hamlet’s soliloquies, ASCII, and mum’s lemon drizzle cake recipe. It fails however for the periodic table, ruined forever by Tom Lehrer.

Comment by kachapopopow 4 days ago

can confirm it is very useful, same for common constants in crypto algorithms

Comment by quesera 4 days ago

Ever the quandary: satisfy some people completely, or a larger number but incompletely.

I concur with the suggestion of 2^19, because even though fewer people would recognize it immediately, many of them would question the significance, and their eventual realization would be more satisfying.

Comment by ghurtado 4 days ago

> and it the eventual realization would be more satisfying.

I think you might be overestimating the curiosity of the average person.

I'm regularly baffled / saddened by how many people care so little about learning anything new, no matter how small.

Is it a woe of modern times? Or has it always been this way?

Comment by quesera 4 days ago

> I think you might be overestimating the curiosity of the average person.

Oh absolutely. But I like to optimize for the others. :)

Also, the audience for consideration here is pretty ... rarified. 0.0% of people in the world, to a first approximation, have heard of Zig. Those that have, are probably pretty aware of powers-of-two math, and maybe curious enough to wonder about a value that seems odd but is obviously deliberately chosen.

> Is it a woe of modern times? Or has it always been this way?

I suspect it's always been this way. People are busy, math is hard, and little games with numbers are way less engaging than games with physical athleticism or bright lights.

Comment by ghurtado 4 days ago

> and little games with numbers are way less engaging than games with physical athleticism or bright lights.

In a different place, at a different time, I would have used the same exact wording.

I think we would be very good friends IRL :D

Comment by cedws 4 days ago

Maybe they count like storage manufacturers. 512 kilobytes instead of kibibytes :)

Comment by ncruces 4 days ago

Someone already covered the difference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45703926#45703995

Mad props to them for picking up my joke and turning it into a recurring donation.

Comment by CamouflagedKiwi 4 days ago

It's $256k each from two companies, in monthly instalments, which ends up not being particularly close to a power of 2 each month.

Comment by amelius 4 days ago

Yeah but banks work with BCD (binary coded decimals), not powers of two.

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by ghurtado 4 days ago

Maybe their donation was in $1000 bills

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by cfiggers 4 days ago

If Zig does eventually save the world one day, it'll be just as much thanks to TigerBeetle as to the Zig Foundation itself.

Having a serious, dedicated, and smart partner, in industry, working hard to operationalize and turn a profit on the language is a massive boon to the whole project (and it would be even if they didn't choose to give back monetarily, but all the more since they are!).

Comment by AndyKelley 4 days ago

I completely agree. Huge respect and appreciation to Joran & team.

Comment by jorangreef 3 days ago

Thank you Andrew, you always have our full support.

Comment by kryps 4 days ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45703926

Comment by davemp 4 days ago

Very good news. Happy to see Zig getting more investment. I already use the build system for production systems and am looking forward to writing some more Zig when projects allow.

Having a modern language that attempts to directly model low level systems is very important.

Comment by morkalork 4 days ago

Can I hop in here and ask: As someone who hasn't done any systems programming in a decade, what would be more interesting to learn on the side, Zig or Rust? I've been in the Python world and seeing tools like uv and ruff, makes me biased towards Rust but Zig seems to be attracting a lot of hype recently?

Edit: Thank you all for your responses!

Comment by flohofwoe 4 days ago

IMHO you should spend one weekend with tinkering with Rust and another weekend tinkering with Zig (e.g. up to a point where you can write simple but still not completely trivial programs both in Rust and Zig), and then decide for yourself which one better matches your taste.

For some people the huge 'surface area' and strict type system of Rust is a big turn-off, while others want exactly that from a programming language.

Comment by vlovich123 4 days ago

Rust takes more than a week to really get. However it has a much more mature ecosystem both in terms of available libraries as well as documentation.

One main difference is that Rust is guaranteed memory safe with generally no runtime overhead for that safety. It also has protections and abstractions to make multithreaded code safe and generally correct.

Comment by lenkite 2 days ago

> It also has protections and abstractions to make multithreaded code safe and generally correct.

Depends on your definition of safety and correctness. Async Rust does not prevent deadlocks and make them very difficult to detect

https://rfd.shared.oxide.computer/rfd/0609

Comment by hackermailman 4 days ago

Brown PLT group has a lot of Rust resources like a debugger for traits https://cel.cs.brown.edu/blog/an-interactive-debugger-for-ru... a model of ownership types https://blog.brownplt.org/2023/09/17/rust-ownership.html and an experimental rewrite of the Rust book https://rust-book.cs.brown.edu/

Systems programming can be done in ocaml or any language really where there is some documentation on the runtime how not to trigger the GC or flags that can be passed to custom set GC policy

Comment by simonw 4 days ago

There was an interesting post comparing Zig and Rust and Go here yesterday: https://sinclairtarget.com/blog/2025/08/thoughts-on-go-vs.-r...

Hacker News discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46153466

Comment by lacker 4 days ago

I feel like Zig is closer to "better C" and Rust is closer to "better C++". So I'd pick based on whether you are more in a C mood or a C++ mood.

Comment by grayhatter 4 days ago

Why not learn both?

For hobby projects, zig will get you *much* closer to the underlying system. So if your goal is systems programming where you're responsible for and get to play with the system itself. Zig will get you there much faster, and the language wont take much time to learn and have fun with.

Surely someone will now attempt to correct me, by asserting it's impossible for anyone to write safe code without rust, and it's improper for me to even suggest Zig. But I'm enjoying the language a lot. It's easy to pick up and understand, and importantly it gets out of your way quickly so you can build exactly the system you want.

For more complex or professional projects however, I would still recommend Zig but more because I can't stand rust. It bothers me that it rejects valid programs because the compiler is unable to prove what I can. So the additional dance rust requires ruins an otherwise fine language.

edit: my default language before zig was also python, so feels reasonable to also mention that I'm pretty sure it'll be significantly easier to transition from python into Zig rather than into rust. There's a number of idioms and expectations from python that fit well in zig, but dont fit in rust.

Comment by matklad 4 days ago

You need to learn both. Both borrow checker (Rust) and comptime (Zig) are huge ideas worth getting your hands dirty with.

If you don't have time to learn both, then learn Zig, as it requires much smaller time investment (though do try to find time for both).

Comment by vlovich123 4 days ago

For what it’s worth there’s a comptime crate for Rust. Not as elegant as a language level feature but probably accomplishes very much similar things.

https://docs.rs/comptime/latest/comptime/

Comment by CathalMullan 4 days ago

There are plans to experiment with language level comptime support too: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/148820

Comment by zozbot234 4 days ago

This is a very interesting feature, especially if comptime can become a true language superset with features such as the ability for seamless type-level programming, leveraging `const fn` code throughout. This would unlock the potential for having true dependent types in (the comptime portion of) Rust programs, and write arbitrary end-to-end compiler-verified proofs about code that will ultimately run in the final program.

Comment by smj-edison 4 days ago

Oh my gosh, that would be incredible! In one of my rust projects, I used enum dispatch so simple functions could be inlined, but it used a slightly hacky macro that couldn't do static dispatch. One of those things that comptime matches very well.

Comment by the__alchemist 4 days ago

Love this. Borrow all the good ideas! Would also enjoy compile-time trig functions, exponents etc so we are not invoking lazy/static/once-cell/lazy-cell etc.

Comment by jgilias 4 days ago

Have you done any ML-lineage languages before (ocaml, Haskell)? If yes, did you like it? If yes, the answer to your question is probably Rust. The thing about Rust is that it’s kind of this Frankenstein language with a lot of foundational influence coming from ML lineage languages (algebraic data types, traits, combinator heavy programming, etc) but with curly braces and memory management part unique (lifetimes) part modern C++ (smart pointers).

I see Zig as being a lot more in C tradition and lineage with nicer and safer memory management techniques. Also comptime (Lisp-ish there?)

My two cents

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by SatvikBeri 4 days ago

I'm in a similar position, I want to learn both eventually but chose to start with Rust because it has several really strong-seeming (like the intro book, or Rust Atomics and Locks), while Zig doesn't have many books yet.

Comment by Zambyte 4 days ago

The official Zig language reference covers everything you need to know about the language to use it: https://ziglang.org/documentation/master

It links out to the standard library documentation, which is also comprehensive and easy to navigate: https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/std

Comment by ulbu 4 days ago

and yet there’s questions on the semi-official forum on how to read from files properly.

no, the docs really don’t cut it.

it is strongly opinionated about the correct way to do things but it leaves you to your own devices to piece together an understanding from source code, ziggit, and discord.

Comment by Zambyte 4 days ago

> and yet there’s questions on the semi-official forum on how to read from files properly.

That is currently in the process of changing. Of course people are discussing things that are changing.

> no, the docs really don’t cut it.

Yes they do :) - source: have written multiple small projects in Zig.

I encourage you to actually read the page I linked from top to bottom if you are interested in learning Zig. I did it because mitchellh mentioned in an interview that it's what he did. It's easy to follow, useful, and not an overwhelming amount of information.

Comment by ulbu 3 days ago

i know zig, i’ve been using it for a few years, i have multiple small projects as well. zig ref is fine, but i’m critical of std and i've grown to be critical on the disposition of the team itself.

the source code has always been the main source of truth and documentation. which means no documentation. std is littered with undocumented behaviours, the build system is still something many people use half-blind. and while i’m fine with breaking changes, but the way they’re just dropped onto our laps with, it seems, almost zero thought put into how to acquaint the users with it. (i started to feel almost as if patience in introducing the concepts and interfaces is one of those things that is below andrew)

while i admit that zig’s authors’ claim to technical excellence is deserved, communication has never been excellent. i’m sure there are people who would gladly involve themselves in documentation efforts, but the chances of receiving andrew’s ire and demeaning disposition are so great that it might be paralysing such efforts leaving it to the Guy himself who's not too wont to educate others.

Comment by whatshisface 4 days ago

The need for book-length expositions is much greater for Rust.

Comment by bbkane 4 days ago

I totally agree with the "try both", but if part of your motivation to learn one is to use it for a job, Rust is more mature than Zig (Zig is not yet 1.0, and still making exciting breaking changes to the languag), and Rust currently has more adoption than Zig- parts of Firefox, Chrome, Android, Windows, Linux, AWS, Azure (and I'm sure thre are more).

Zig is gaining integration into larger projects (Ghostty, TigerBeetle, Roc, Ubers build system come to mind), but it's not yet achieved Rust's success

Comment by smj-edison 4 days ago

I see people say that if you like C you'll like Zig, and if you like C++ you'll like Rust. I kinda disagree, since both languages take a lot from C and C++.

Rust feels like "let's take the best safety features from both", while Zig feels like "let's take the best transparency from both". In a way, Rust's traits are more foreign to C++ than Zig's comptime, as Zig has similar duck typing (though the ergonomics are much cleaner, especially with @compileError).

Comment by the__alchemist 4 days ago

Short answer: If you like to use pointers in business logic (E.g. not just for MMIO and addressing physical memory): Zig. Otherwise: Rust.

Note that there are a number of domains where Zig might be a practical option in the future, but aren't now due to library support. With Rust, you will reinvent wheels more than most people have an appetite for. In Zig, you will do this for most things.

Comment by AlotOfReading 4 days ago

The main difference I've noticed is that the core devs in the rust community are, above all, extremely thoughtful and systematic about how language changes address the core language goals. The zig devs I've interacted with seem much more focused on having a clean developer experience instead of trying to find elegant solutions to hard language design problems. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a very different thing. In particular, the borrow checker is enforcing rules 99% of your pointer code should be following anyway.

The main complaint about the borrow checker is that what seem like trivial changes can have subtle implications that require wildly different ownership patterns to be made correct. Rust tells you something's wrong. If you don't thoroughly understand how you're using pointers (which few people do), it can feel like trivial changes exploding into much larger refactors than you'd need in languages where the rules aren't statically enforced.

Comment by mutkach 4 days ago

More information is needed to give proper advice:

- Do you like filling out the type annotations in Python (making sure linter check passes)? Do you like TYPES in general?

- Do you like working with memory (crushing memory bugs, solving leaks)?

- Do you prefer imperative or functional approach more?

Comment by morkalork 4 days ago

IMO type checking is the best thing to happen to Python in recent memory and eliminates a whole class of developer errors. Getting linters to pass 100% also scratches a weird itch for me, like collecting items in a video game haha.

I do like working with memory, seeing a custom slab allocator used in production code was one of the more interesting aspects of the little experience I had with c++, but always having to be "on guard" so as to not shoot myself in the foot with pointer manipulation was kind of exhausting.

I like both.

Comment by mutkach 4 days ago

That "itch" is exactly what I meant, lol! And I agree! I'd definitely give Rust a try. Playing around with types and traits until they click is genuinely addictive - it feels like solving a puzzle or something

Comment by cindyllm 4 days ago

[dead]

Comment by Zambyte 4 days ago

Zig is easier to get up and running with. Rust is easier to land a job with. Rust is more novel (borrow checker), while Zig is likely more familiar (unique blend of existing ideas).

It really depends what you mean by "interesting" :-)

Comment by schaefer 4 days ago

only you can decide what you find interesting.

Comment by cmrdporcupine 4 days ago

Increasingly I feel like these two have very different audiences.

Disappointingly as a Rust dev, I don't actually see a lot of Rust being used for "systems" development (OS, driver, DB internals, embedded, etc), but increasingly for network services/web services/web stack work, heavily biased towards tokio async driven applications. It's a lot of engineers living further up the stack, leaning on frameworks, and in applications with very large dependency tree footprints. As a % anyways. There's a lot more Rust code out there than Zig.

I think Zig has a far more minimalistic thing going on and I like that. I find its type system a lot more primitive, and would miss ADTs/enums, and the borrow checker etc. but I like its overall philosophy better.

Comment by whatshisface 4 days ago

Zig has closed enums, so you can recover some of Rust's sum type safety.

Comment by Vaslo 4 days ago

My world sounds exactly like yours and I love the astral packages - thanks for asking this

Comment by whatshisface 4 days ago

Zig is not done yet. They make breaking changes with each minor version.

Comment by Zambyte 4 days ago

I have been writing small Zig projects for a couple of minor releases now, and this is no joke. They are not afraid to change core features in breaking ways. However, they do a good job with migration guides, and the breaking changes always feel like a very thoughtful step in a good direction. I'm very excited to see where Zig lands when it stabilizes.

Comment by letmetweakit 4 days ago

I’d choose Rust because of the better safety guarantees and nice tooling.

Comment by hoppp 4 days ago

I really think that zig is the way forward and this is great news.

Comment by fithisux 4 days ago

While I will stay for now on C, on my Windows PC where I have my hobby attempts, I use zig as Win32 compiler for C/RC/...

Still I use jom for building but I may move to Zig build

Comment by ChrisArchitect 4 days ago

News from October;

Discussion then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45703926

Comment by nowaymo6237 3 days ago

The owner of Bun should at least pledge like $35

Comment by rvz 4 days ago

The Zig Foundation is funded by donations from everyone from individuals to businesses such as TigerBeetle. At least you can donate directly to them.

The Rust Foundation on the otherhand…

Comment by kennykartman 4 days ago

> The Rust Foundation gratefully accepts donations from individuals and non-member organizations alike!

I might miss your point, but I don't see the difference.

Comment by esafak 4 days ago

Oh, interesting. Is NATS moving to Zig??

Comment by dangoor 4 days ago

Synadia's announcement, https://www.synadia.com/blog/synadia-tigerbeetle-zig-foundat..., says:

> There are no plans to move the NATS server to Zig.

> Zig will become a Tier 1 NATS client, and Synadia will utilize Zig in resource constrained environments to bridge OT/IT for manufacturing, IIOT, connected cars, robotics and embodied AI.

Comment by justincormack 4 days ago

I think they said last time they are working on a zig project, not doing a rewrite

Comment by benjiro 4 days ago

What will NATS gain from moving from Go to Zig? No GC ... For the rest, Zig is still unstable, while Go is mature and not prune to change. Makes little sense.

Comment by wrcwill 4 days ago

can someone explain why zig is often compared to rust?

i understand zig as a better C, but in what world is another memory unsafe language a good idea?

i mean i kinda get if the thing you are writing would require LOTS of unsafe, then zig provides better ergonomics

however most programs can definitely be written without unsafe and in that case i dont get why wed do this to ourselves in 2025

why not take advantage of memory safe, and data race safety?

Comment by whatshisface 4 days ago

Memory safety is a gradient. Zig is "memory safe-er" than C just because its arrays store length. Of course, RCE vulnerability is not a gradient.

Comment by dnautics 4 days ago

because rust is more than just memory safety, it's not obvious that "the rust way" is the only way to go. fil-c is a good? example of a alternative strategy. sel4 is a radically different strategy that is as much of a pain in the ass as it's powerful. (disclaimer, i'm working on compile time memory safety for zig)

Comment by allknowingfrog 4 days ago

The article actually addresses these questions. It's way more than just a donation announcement. It lays out the various reasons that Zig is the language of choice for TigerBeetle.

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by CamouflagedKiwi 4 days ago

Because both are languages that could feasibly be used to solve a particular set of problems. TigerBeetle could have been written in either, they explain why they didn't choose Rust but it was a feasible alternative (in a way that Java or Python would not have been).

Conceptually C and C++ are also in that potential solution space, but I'm sure they feel that Zig's properties are superior for what they want.

Comment by npalli 4 days ago

[flagged]