Framework Laptop 13 gets ARM processor with 12 cores via upgrade kit

Posted by woodrowbarlow 4 days ago

Comments

Comment by emmp 4 days ago

No interest in this exactly, but I am interested in the idea that third parties are now targeting the Framework form factor explicitly to sell upgrades/replacements outside of the Framework marketplace.

Comment by roughly 4 days ago

Yeah, there’s a lot of critiques of the product/packaging/etc, but this feels like huge validation of the Framework model - this is an unrelated 3rd party looking to get a chip in consumer hands who decided to use the FW chassis. That’s Exactly what we all were hoping for when Framework first launched.

Comment by NewJazz 4 days ago

Yeah this is what annoyed me about Pine64's Pinebook Pro 2 plans... No upgrade kits, they wanted to completely change the form factor!

The chassis of my PBP is great (brittle plastic notwithstanding)! That's the last thing I want to replace in the device.

Comment by whatevaa 3 days ago

More ewaste. I have first one, chasis/screen good, hardware shit, software unsupported. Abandoned by everybody. Collecting dust.

Comment by NewJazz 3 days ago

Yeah I genuinely don't understand why they didn't consider fast tracking rk3588S boards for a retrofit. Drivers weren't good for a while, but they weren't hopeless either.

Comment by giancarlostoro 4 days ago

Its about time, I hope System76 comes up with their own version of the Framework laptop, because I would love to buy a laptop where I can swap out all internals, motherboard etc. but I really also want to work with System76 because I love what they are doing with POP_OS! (though I prefer arch these days, I can still use their Desktop environment etc) and love that they make Linux hardware specifically.

We have needed a "Jeep of Laptops" for a while, maybe someone needs to spec out a fully open source design that any manufacturer can target.

Comment by shkkmo 4 days ago

> We have needed a "Jeep of Laptops" for a while, maybe someone needs to spec out a fully open source design that any manufacturer can target.

I'm not sure if this counts in your book, but releasing all this stuff is closer than anyone else is to that dream.

> https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-16

Comment by blacksmith_tb 4 days ago

You can always just throw money at them for Pop!_OS[1] (which is what I did when I bought my Framework 13 and installed Pop on it).

1: https://system76.com/donate/

Comment by prmoustache 4 days ago

> We have needed a "Jeep of Laptops" for a while, maybe someone needs to spec out a fully open source design that any manufacturer can target.

That is the MNT Reform.

Comment by adgjlsfhk1 4 days ago

Honestly a Framework+System76 merger would make a lot of sense. System76 cares about the software but uses whitelabeled hardware. Framework has done excellent hardware engineering but doesn't care much about the software.

Comment by joombaga 4 days ago

I don't know that it's fair to say Framework don't care much about the software. Their oldest devices are still getting firmware updates. At any rate, Pop!_OS runs very well on Framework Laptops (though I use Arch + Hyprland, w/ Windows on their storage expansion card).

Comment by TheCraiggers 4 days ago

That's a bit of a hot take considering all the donations they've been making to OSS projects. Sure, maybe they're not making Yet Another Distro but they're donating to and upstreamimg patches to things that everyone (including PopOS) uses.

To me, that's far from not caring about the software. Especially when you compare to other vendors like Pine.

Comment by adgjlsfhk1 4 days ago

To be clear, this wasn't an attempt at a diss on Framework. They're what my recommended laptop has been for the past ~3 years (and would be what I got if I hadn't gotten my most recent laptop before frameworks were widely available).

What I probably should have said is that System76 takes open software ridiculously seriously in the same way that Framework takes open hardware ridiculously seriously. On the scale of Linux laptops, Framework is on par with Dell and Lenovo (the best of the big OEMs) in terms of upstreaming patches etc.

System76 OTOH is completely crazy. They've put Coreboot on their laptops, built their own DE because they got tired of Ubuntu not shipping proper nvidia drivers, etc.

Comment by legitronics 4 days ago

There’s also this RISC V thing, I ordered one in July and got mine in November.

I could transplant the desktop model I got into my original framework, but I haven’t attempted it.

https://store.deepcomputing.io/products/dc-roma-ai-pc-risc-v...

Comment by Gracana 4 days ago

That's really cool. What's it like to use in terms of performance and software compatibility?

Comment by legitronics 4 days ago

it has a few issues, I think jeffgeerling sums it up fairly well.

https://github.com/geerlingguy/sbc-reviews/issues/82

"Like the Pi 4, I think this system is the first RISC-V desktop environment that isn't painful to use, just inconvenient. Actions still have delays, but the delays are more reasonable, and don't make me constantly question if the computer's frozen."

also some really odd choices by Eswin for the eic7702x, which is essentially 2 p550 chips glued together.

Comment by amelius 4 days ago

Apple: "We can't make great products if we don't completely control everything"

Framework: "Let us show you how it is done!"

Comment by HunterWare 4 days ago

Looking at the comparison btw M class machines and the Minisforum MS-R1 that is the same chip, I'm not sure Apple is being proved wrong here.

Comment by nine_k 4 days ago

How is CIX CP8180 the same chip as any of the Apple M chips?.

Also, a very different approach to GPU.

Comment by dontlaugh 4 days ago

That is interesting.

I wish someone made a keyboard that doesn’t suck, ideally split as well.

Comment by thebigspacefuck 4 days ago

https://blog.perprogramming.com/posts/framework-ortholinear-...

Comment by lawn 4 days ago

Very cool!

Although to be pedantic, that's not an "ortholinear" keyboard (as in a square grid) rather a keyboard with column stagger (which you should use).

I wonder if you could make it for a FW13 too? I know QMK doesn't work for 13.

Edit: I see now that it uses a separate microcontroller, so yes if you could make it fit then it should work.

Comment by evanjrowley 4 days ago

It also bothers me that the meaning of "ortholinear" has been lost, but at least it's a sign that the hobby has grown to a certain point.

Comment by dontlaugh 4 days ago

It should be possible to make a dumb version of such a keyboard wired the same as the stock one, just with the keys moved around. It would need some OS configuration to be truly useful, though.

Comment by dontlaugh 4 days ago

Yes, something like that. Ideally for a reasonably sized 13-14” laptop.

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by ratrocket 4 days ago

Similar to a sibling comment, and perhaps not really applicable (since this isn't a company making something people can buy...), but the MNT Reform is amenable to fitting a custom/ergonomic keyboard also (I hadn't seen the Framework in the sibling comment, it looks very cool!).

I don't know how to link to it directly, but midway down this article there's a picture and some more links of an MNT Reform (apparently completely home-built) with a very cool, "thumb-centric", column staggered ergo keyboard:

https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2022-07-01-july-update.htm...

(search for "More great mods from the community..." heading if interested)

I would very much like to have a keyboard like either of those on my laptop. The stares you'd get when in public!!

Comment by einpoklum 4 days ago

Just made a top-level comment about the same thing.

A big part of the core functionality of a laptop, as opposed to a PC, is is that of a typewriter:

* Notes in class

* Minutes in a meeting

* Entries in a journal or travelogue

* Writing the next great novel

etc.

Why have manufacturers simply taken that away from us, in favor of a terrible excuse with ridiculous tactile feedback?

Comment by dontlaugh 4 days ago

I actually like short travel very light linear switches, mechanical or not.

I don’t like row stagger and non-split keyboards, for ergonomic reasons. That’s definitely a niche preference, but if anyone would cater to it you’d expect it to be Framework or similar.

Comment by einpoklum 4 days ago

You're right that Framework is exactly where I would expect flexibility on this: I mean, just looking at their landing page - you see a laptop without the keyboard and ports. Framework offers 176 (!) kinds of "keyboards":

https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards

but not one decent keyboard. Why?

(Answer: it's basically just keyboard covers, and the many options are due to variations of colors and languages. But I would take a hot pink / toxic green keyboard with ancient tibetan labels if the keys were non-chicklet, with decent travel, sizes, and feedback. 7 rows if possible.)

Comment by fragmede 4 days ago

Overhead of small volume manufacturing. If they make all those variations and intend to continue existing as a company that makes money selling things, it would have to be at a price where no one's going to buy one. But if I start an Etsy store selling one-offs at $399 each, people can grumble about my price, but it's not on Framework.

Comment by ncrmro 4 days ago

UHK ultimate hacker keyboard

Comment by dontlaugh 4 days ago

I already have a Corne and a Glove80. I'd like something built into a laptop as well.

Comment by samrus 4 days ago

Exactly. This is exactly we get in return for compromising on quality and price with framework. Other tech is cheaper because of planned obsolescence or lock in. Im glad to pay more money to have this freedom

Comment by browningstreet 4 days ago

My first thought was, "How many units could they possibly expect to sell given this target?"

Comment by Someone 4 days ago

FTA: “the company has introduced a mainboard that can be installe in the Framework Laptop 13 or in a mini PC case“

⇒ their market likely isn’t enormous, but it is larger than that of Framework Laptop owners.

Comment by cmrdporcupine 4 days ago

Sounds like the board also somehow works inside a mini-itx chassis or something?

Comment by throwuxiytayq 4 days ago

Given it's a Framework 13 mainboard, you can probably put it in any Framework 13-compatible enclosure:

https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case https://frame.work/products/framework-laptop-13-mainboard-ho... https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13

etc., lots of designs available.

Comment by bsimpson 4 days ago

The Legion Go is basically that with some joycons and a screen. I keep mine in my entertainment center when I'm not using it handheld, and play plastic instrument games on the big screen.

Looks like this would be an easy entry point to a DIY Steam Machine that takes up ~no space under your TV.

Comment by nish__ 4 days ago

Wow. That's amazing truly. They really are entirely open source. You can even 3D print one.

Comment by clhodapp 4 days ago

It's not standard mini-itx. Since the physical form factors for their laptop boards are published publicly and are somewhat stable, are "desktop" cases for them.

Comment by ndiddy 4 days ago

This board uses the CIX CP8180 SoC, which has worse performance and significantly worse efficiency than even Apple's M1 chip. See Jeff Geerling's review of a desktop with this SoC: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2025/minisforum-stuffs-ent... If you need an ARM Linux laptop, it's probably a better choice to get a used M1 or M2 MacBook Pro and put Fedora Asahi on it.

Comment by cmrdporcupine 4 days ago

Yeah, or if you don't mind something with performance this low, the RK3588 has much better kernel support (I have a couple here) and there's some companies offering laptop format for those now.

But as much as I love the RK3588 it's very much in the "low perf utility SBC" world than "good performing general PC". I use my two boards for NAS, Plex, Forgejo CI builders, etc.

I do recall that Jeff Geerling I think had some followup with that board that perhaps there could be firmware changes that improve the power efficiency later maybe?

Comment by bpye 4 days ago

I have an MNT Pocket Reform with an RK3588 and I do like the device, but yeah, it can be a little sluggish at times.

It is very usable for email, editing documents, code review, etc - but it will struggle if you're trying to multitask heavily.

This CIX SoC is a fair bit faster than the RK3588 though I believe.

Comment by cmrdporcupine 4 days ago

There's an RK3688 coming next year (hopefully?) which looks like a perf bump.

Comment by nottorp 4 days ago

But has Asashi managed to have support for bells and whistles like graphics acceleration and sleep by now?

This SoC may actually have Linux drivers.

Comment by dllu 4 days ago

It does have graphics acceleration and you can even play AAA titles with fex [1] since last year. But many bells and whistles still don't work --- for example, the video decoding hardware, proper sleep, etc.

Anyway, I've been using it on my Macbook Air M2 and it works fine for my use case [3]. Pretty smooth.

[1] https://rosenzweig.io/blog/aaa-gaming-on-m1.html

[3] https://daniel.lawrence.lu/blog/2024-12-01-asahi-linux-with-...

Comment by nottorp 4 days ago

> proper sleep

The one feature that only works properly when using both Apple hardware and software...

Comment by fy20 4 days ago

From 2017-2023 I had Thinkpads and some Acer which was well supported by Linux and sleep was the worse part. On numerous occasions across different devices I'd put the laptop to sleep, put it in my bag, and pull it out in a coffee shop to find it was on and now the battery is down to 50%. Why is sleep so hard?

Comment by lillecarl 3 days ago

Ever since Microsoft added "modern standby" it's not a problem anymore. Chips became power-efficient enough that we can just "fake sleep" now, which means disabling all but one core and downclocking it to the lowest possible frequency. My AMD laptop was 400mhz, draining about 15% per day.

Say what you will about Microsoft, but sometimes a strong leader can make good things happen (TPM2 and modern standby)

Comment by nottorp 4 days ago

Well it's being discussed on here in most linux laptops thread.

On x86 it's because linux relies on the acpi tables which vendors don't bother to do properly.

On Apple ARM hardware/linux it's because Apple don't bother releasing any docs.

On other ARM SoCs... not sure. In theory every vendor wants volume orders for phones so they should be able to sleep properly?

It's sad if you're an Apple hardware + software slave and used to just closing the lid on your laptop and having it basically lose no battery for days, especially since ARM.

Comment by bpye 4 days ago

Graphics acceleration yes - and more fully featured than Panfrost for Mali at that, but I think sleep is still just s2idle.

Comment by beeflet 4 days ago

Asashi is a project built on sand. I'm not giving apple a dime

Comment by Melonai 4 days ago

Maybe, but it works quite well for me, so to each their own! :)

Can't seem to get DP Alt Mode to work on my used 2021 M1 Pro though, even though it's listed as supported with an asterisk, maybe someone here has managed it?

(Also, if you're buying used and wiping MacOS are you truly giving Apple a dime? I guess it's a matter of perspective.)

Comment by nine_k 4 days ago

Don't give Apple a dime, buy second-hand Apple hardware. Asahi can make a lot of sense on a Mac Mini, where proper sleep is not that important, but which could be an excellent small build server or a local ML inference box, for rather moderate money.

Comment by 650REDHAIR 4 days ago

I want to support and encourage companies that aren't Apple.

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by chrisweekly 4 days ago

Apple hardware, yes. Fedora Asahi, maybe. OrbStack^1 provides awesome flexibility and DX/UX, w/ minimal footprint.

1. https://orbstack.dev/

Comment by metadat 4 days ago

Orbstack is just a less bug-ridden implementation of Docker4Mac, not really pertinent or earth shattering for running desktop apps on the daily.

What's wrong with Asahi?

Comment by dpc_01234 4 days ago

Is _everything_ working? Last time I put Linux on a x86_64 Air Book I was given for free, everything was working _except_ resume from suspend would crash and reboot the system, and from the reading on it, it seems it is a know issue due to T4 security chip or something. Made me believe that if older chips doesn't yet work, the newer ones probably have more caveats. Or am I wrong?

Generally I'm reluctant investing in Linux on a hardware from company more or less hostile to it, but I also don't have any need for ARM laptop, and I'm happy with my Framework.

Comment by philistine 4 days ago

> more or less hostile to it

I wouldn't say the problem is hostility. It's complete non-interest. Apple wisely allowed us to load a non-chain-of-trust OS while maintaining the chain of trust in macOS, which is an incredible advancement still unmatched by other manufacturers.

And that's it. They have done zero work to accommodate Linux. At all. Perhaps if Microsoft ever figures out that NT used to run on more than one arch, Apple will revive Boot Camp for Windows and deem it useful to include Linux this time?

Comment by thewebguyd 4 days ago

> Apple will revive Boot Camp for Windows and deem it useful to include Linux this time?

If Apple wanted to, they could already do that right now. Windows runs on arm just fine. Heck, windows on Arm in a parallels VM runs better on my macbook pro than it does natively on an x86 laptop.

If Apple would make some drivers, even just for Windows, I bet they'd sell more macs. But it would seem Apple either calculated that ecosystem/services lock-in is way more important to them than a potential boost in hardware sales for alternative OSes, or they are really reluctant to make drivers for Apple Silicon available elsewhere out of fear it'll expose some trade secrets, which they didn't have to worry about when they used intel.

Comment by Aurornis 4 days ago

> If Apple would make some drivers, even just for Windows, I bet they'd sell more macs.

The incremental bump in sales would be very small.

Even when Apple did provide bootcamp drivers to run Windows on old laptops, very few people used it as their daily driver for a Windows computer. I'm sure Apple has a better estimate of the market for people who bought Macs to use with alternative OSes back when they supported it, but they've calculated that it's not worth the effort.

Comment by philistine 4 days ago

The problem is indeed Windows. Could you point me to where you can legally buy a Windows for ARM licence?

Comment by thewebguyd 4 days ago

You can buy it from the Microsoft Store inside of windows once its installed. That's how it works with parallels, or any other Windows on Arm device (say, for upgrading from Home to Pro).

Comment by bigyabai 4 days ago

> Apple wisely allowed us to load a non-chain-of-trust OS

> an incredible advancement still unmatched by other manufacturers

Sheesh, don't forget to zip up Tim's pants once you're done. I hope other manufacturers don't follow Apple in forcing proprietary bootloaders. Open alternatives like Clover and OpenCore are fully viable for booting macOS.

Comment by aseipp 4 days ago

The Macbook M2 Air running Asahi Linux is easily my favorite Linux laptop ever, far superior to any Thinkpad or Dell XPS I've owned, imo. I think things like Thunderbolt and some DisplayPort features are missing, but I have never needed this as it is purely a laptop for me. But it has everything else I could want: suspend/sleep, proper frequency scaling, great GPU drivers, USB/wifi/bluetooth, speakers, brightness/keyboard settings, etc. The webcam works I think but I haven't tried it. The battery life is great, though macOS is still quite a ways ahead in that department.

Comment by e12e 4 days ago

> "Some DisplayPort"? There's still no HDMI/video out on the M2 air under Linux? No Ethernet 1 or 10gps?

I'd advise buying a MacBook air m1 over an m2 if the goal is to run Linux...

https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/m2/

Comment by chrisweekly 3 days ago

Whoops, mea culpa. I'm not personally very interested in desktop linux GUI apps, and hadn't realized that was out of scope for Orb's featureset. Given my narrower criteria for "linux support" (VMs for CLI-based operations), Orb has been amazing. Its capabilities exceed that of Docker4Mac beyond stability and performance. But, yeah, that may be moot in light of your desktop GUI purposes. I have no experience w Asahi.

Comment by bigyabai 4 days ago

> What's wrong with Asahi?

...all the missing support?

Comment by signa11 4 days ago

it doesn’t do gui afaik.

Comment by signa11 3 days ago

what’s the reason for downvotes ? has orbstack started doing gui’s now ?

Comment by kelnos 4 days ago

> early tests show that the SoC already draws about 16 watts at idle

Ooof. I feel like power efficiency would be the main reason I'd take the plunge and switch from x86_64 to arm64, given that there would be difficulties and trade offs software-wise to do so.

My 13th-gen Intel board in my Framework 13 sits at around 11W semi-idle (Firefox constantly burning 35% of one core for reasons that are my fault). And this is with Linux, where power management isn't always the best.

Regardless, I'm happy to see something like this. It might not be something I want today, but it's a step in the right direction.

Comment by nubinetwork 4 days ago

It's either a firmware or soc thing, hoping they can fix it without having to spin a new chip. O6 owners keep bringing it up, but personally I don't care since in my case it's lower than the hardware it's replacing.

Comment by MBCook 4 days ago

So this isn’t an official thing, this is a 3rd party selling a replacement motherboard, is that right?

Comment by toshinoriyagi 4 days ago

Correct, it's not sold by Framework, but is a replacement mainboard sold by a 3rd party. I think that is one of the big appeals of a modular laptop like Framework, though. You can create an ecosystem around it, customize, and not be locked in to just what the primary manufacturer makes.

Comment by MBCook 4 days ago

Yeah it’s a good feature. Just wanted to make sure I wasn’t misreading the situation.

Comment by mtklein 4 days ago

This is astonishingly bad power usage for a laptop, a complete dealbreaker: "...early tests show that the SoC already draws about 16 watts at idle..."

Comment by antonkochubey 4 days ago

For some context, my 12-core Intel laptop consumes 1.5 to 2 watts at idle for the SoC. Apple M silicon might consume even less.

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by cuu508 4 days ago

yeah, that is impressively bad. Perhaps a reporting error and it is 16W at full tilt?

Comment by gary_0 4 days ago

Maybe it's a typo and it's 1.6W.

Comment by bigyabai 4 days ago

> upgrade kit

> makes your laptop slower

Hmm...

Comment by 999900000999 4 days ago

I don't have much faith in Arm Linux. Tuxedo gave up.

Cheap Windows Arm laptops are flooding the market, if someone can pick ONE laptop to support they could easily buy them on sale , refurbished them with Linux and make a profit.

Looks likes their are some challenges with doing this.

Comment by tensor 4 days ago

Do you mean "desktop arm linux"? Because AWS, Google, and others all run Linux on their arm servers and that market segment is only growing.

Comment by H1Supreme 4 days ago

I've been running ARM VM's on my M1 MBP for the last few years, and outside of the very beginning, it's been pretty smooth sailing.

Comment by alecsm 4 days ago

Valve is gonna save the day once again.

Comment by alimbada 4 days ago

I was about to comment to say that unless Valve is prepared to invest significant effort into an x86 -> ARM translation layer that's not going to happen but a quick search for "linux x86 to arm translation" led me to an XDA article[1] proving me wrong. The recently announced Steam Frame runs on ARM and can run x86 games directly using using something called FEX.

Now we just need to be as good as (or better than) Apple's Rosetta.

[1] https://www.xda-developers.com/arm-translation-layer-steam-f...

Comment by alecsm 4 days ago

From yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46126446

Comment by LoganDark 4 days ago

Apple Silicon actually has microarchitectural quirks implementing certain x86-isms in hardware for Rosetta 2 to use. I doubt any other ARM SoC would do such a thing, so I doubt third-party translation will ever get quite as efficient.

Comment by pjmlp 4 days ago

Running Windows stuff.....

Comment by alecsm 4 days ago

I don't use Windows but I do run a lot of software made only for Windows. I don't see any problem with that.

Comment by pjmlp 4 days ago

Until the fountain runs dry, because the kingdom lords diverted the river from Valve's well castle.

Comment by alecsm 4 days ago

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.

Valve is pushing mostly open source to expand to other platforms which is a win win for everybody.

Comment by pjmlp 4 days ago

That would be true if they were actually making devs embrace SteamOS.

Comment by bigyabai 4 days ago

They are. You're mad that Valve isn't militantly enforcing Linux-native games, which is nonsense. The OG Steam Machine did that and was DOA.

Thousands of game studios are gone now, and supporting their software is important legacy work. You don't have to appreciate that, but I do. I do not give the faintest fuck about the opportunity cost you bemoan towards native UNIX games when I do this. That's your problem, not mine.

Comment by pjmlp 4 days ago

Yeah, and Windows running WSL 2 is the Year of Linux Desktop, it is your problem to accept it, not mine.

If Proton is "Linux" games, so is running GNU/Linux under a VM a proper distro.

Comment by bigyabai 4 days ago

I quite prefer that to the alternative of not running Windows stuff.

Comment by pjmlp 4 days ago

Thing is, that strengths Windows market relevance, as IBM learnt with OS/2 and its Windows compatibility.

Comment by bigyabai 4 days ago

Good. I love exploiting Windows' market relevance, it's rather fun and engaging.

Comment by pjmlp 4 days ago

Until like IBM found out, devalues the underlying offer enough that it becomes irrelevant.

Comment by 650REDHAIR 4 days ago

Isn't Valve's new VR headset running ARM?

I have faith!

Comment by pjmlp 4 days ago

I have seen VR headsets trying to break any significant market share since 1994, they have never been anything other than a niche, with customers having too much money to throw around.

Comment by blisstonia 4 days ago

They probably gave up on their Snapdragon X efforts as Snapdragon X2 Elite was nipping at their heels and they'd have a redundant device by the time their efforts came to market.

Comment by kidfiji 4 days ago

Valve seems to be putting a lot of resources into this area for their Steam Frame

Comment by embedding-shape 4 days ago

> I don't have much faith in Arm Linux. Tuxedo gave up.

I was also slowly loosing hope, although I do still run some NixOS ARM Raspberry PIs. But with the recent Valve backing, I'm back on the train again, and eagerly awaiting the slow but steady improvements, and figuring out where I can contribute back.

Comment by winterqt 4 days ago

Supposedly the ARM ThinkPads are alright on Linux.

Comment by jonkoops 4 days ago

Not really. The drivers are not upstream, so it only works well on specially made Ubuntu spins that carry out of tree patches and random binary blobs. It is really still quite a mess at the moment.

Comment by danans 4 days ago

> It is really still quite a mess at the moment.

Integration, testing, and support are all expensive. Right or wrong, that's a reason why if a laptop "just works" (like a Mac, Windows Thinkpad, or a Chromebook), it probably has proprietary binaries.

Also, if you aren't paying for the OS (via the hardware it's coupled with), you can't expect the OS to have the benefits of tight hardware integration.

Even Framework laptops use proprietary boot firmware, and they've been pretty clear that they only provide support for Ubuntu and Fedora, not the alphabet soup of other Linux desktop distros.

Comment by whalesalad 4 days ago

We run a handful of Linux workloads on Graviton without any issues.

Comment by darksaints 4 days ago

Honestly, I don't have much faith in Linux anymore, and it has everything to do with the explosion of the kernel's codebase due to the explosion of cheaper devices running linux and the (admittedly difficult) management issues surrounding the kernel. I feel like from a security perspective, macos is a better choice and that pains me as a long time linux user.

Can we please move on to microkernels already? I'm fine with a tiny performance hit, I just don't want to get rooted because I plugged in the wrong USB stick.

Comment by bigyabai 4 days ago

You can use microkernels whenever you want. Just be aware that they typically have the same issues with zombie/cruft code and aren't necessarily more secure for every application.

Comment by whizzter 1 day ago

I think the point is that even drivers could be non-trusted and live outside of the kernel and just provide the exact service required with minimal access.

That said, why do we still need drivers in 2025? Most regular printers should be dumb, U-MASS should be dumb, webcams should be dumb, monitors are dumb, etc... very few devices coming really needs custom drivers anymore (even with many customizations we could provide class specific descriptors that drivers could adhere to).

Comment by bayindirh 4 days ago

If you don't want to go macOS route and want to leave Linux world, your destination would be FreeBSD or OpenBSD.

On the other hand, if you're not running Wine, you can't get autorun virii from USB drives, plus the Windows virii just lives there and can't do anything.

Comment by eigencoder 4 days ago

What about plan9? ;)

Comment by ggm 4 days ago

Plan9 is like ocean yacht racing. If you have to ask about the "cost" you aren't the target market.

Plan9 is like writing. You either do it, or talk about doing it. I'm talking not doing btw. I tried, but I got stuck on trivial things and the barrier to asking for help over 2+2= is high. (No offence intended. The 9 heads aren't interested in running a kindergarden)

Comment by 999900000999 4 days ago

I want a 4TB SSD.

To do that on a MacBook I'm spending a minimum of 3200$.

If you have unlimited money ( or can expense it) a 3200$ to 4k MacBook is going to be the best experience money can buy.

If you have limited funds, a 200$ used computer can get the job done with the right distro.

Comment by anthonyryan1 4 days ago

Does this board boot Linux via a device tree, or have hardware discovery?

How about UEFI vs arm-specific bootloaders?

I tried arm32 Linux a few years back, and the largest hindrance at the time was the device trees and non-UEFI boot process. Given up on exploring the platform further (except maybe for SBC like raspberry pi) until that situation improves.

Comment by aseipp 4 days ago

The CIX CP8180 uses UEFI (it is intended to boot Windows which requires it) but the boot flow can, I believe, use either ACPI or device trees, based on a boot setting. The ACPI boot flow has the advantage that any normal Linux distro should work, while the device tree variant I think has more hardware enablement.

The upstream story due to this is kind of a mixed bag, though. I think they also still use out-of-tree NPU drivers, etc. Device trees and other updates are still flowing upstream. I think the next Mesa release will support the Immortalis GPU series though, so that'll hopefully polish off a big remaining problem with ordinary distros.

Comment by woodrowbarlow 4 days ago

the minisforum ms-r1 has the same SoC and supports UEFI

Comment by tonypapousek 4 days ago

> The Qualcomm Snapdragon X Plus and Snapdragon X Elite have proven that ARM processors have earned a place in the laptop market

That’s a strange revision of fairly recent history. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, Apple’s the one that proved out laptop ARM at scale.

Comment by prmoustache 4 days ago

Arm powered chromebooks did that earlier than Apple Silicon laptops.

Comment by evanjrowley 3 days ago

All the way back in 2012: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/11/review-samsungs-new-...

Comment by woodrowbarlow 4 days ago

here's the actual listing: https://metacomputing.io/products/metacomputing-arm-aipc

i posted the article instead because it has some details that aren't on the listing.

Comment by jeffbee 4 days ago

It also has basically no details. What even is the difference between the Standard and Pro offering at twice the price?

Comment by hecanjog 4 days ago

It looks like the pro is the version with the full framework laptop chassis, battery, etc, and the standard is the version in the coolermaster case. (The black one with antennas on top)

Comment by znpy 4 days ago

I'm curious to see battery life reports over this. Chances are these arm chips will not be beating intel/amd on battery life.

Also worth looking at battery life compared to performance...

Comment by coffeeaddict1 4 days ago

I'd like to ask HN a very vaguely related question. I need to get a self-hosted runner (for GitHub Actions) that is capable of running Windows ARM64. What are my options other than buying a machine and do everything manually? Are there any service providers that offer Windows ARM64 VMs? I can only seem to find options for Linux.

Comment by khazit 4 days ago

In case you don't already know, there are Github-hosted runners that run Windows arm64 [1]

Also, it's not what you're asking, but self-hosted runners are a security nightmare if you don't have the hardware to completely isolate them from your local network.

[1] https://github.com/actions/partner-runner-images/blob/main/i...

Comment by coffeeaddict1 4 days ago

They don't seem to be available for private repos (unless you sign up for Github Teams or Enterprise).

Comment by 6SixTy 4 days ago

Microsoft offers Windows on ARM servers. Could slam the Windows ARM ISO on a 3rd party VPS as well.

Comment by coffeeaddict1 4 days ago

Any recommendation for an Arm vps? I tried using a Hetzner server but apparently their server offering doesn't support mountint Windows Arm images.

Comment by paxys 4 days ago

Your best bet is probably Azure. Otherwise you can spin up an AWS graviton VM and install windows on it yourself.

Comment by hulitu 2 days ago

> This processor has a total of eight ARM Cortex-A720 performance cores, the two fastest can hit boost clock speeds of up to 2.6 GHz

Impressing. Athlon speed. And boost, and only 2 of them. Trully impressing.

> This chipset is likely slower than the Snapdragon X Elite or a current flagship smartphone chip, but it should still provide enough performance for many everyday tasks.

This read out like: 640k should be enough for anybody.

Comment by r2vcap 4 days ago

Qualcomm talked a lot about Snapdragon X Elite as the future of Windows and Linux on ARM, but results so far are mixed. Windows on ARM is finally usable on recent laptops, yet compatibility gaps remain, and Linux support is still far from mature.

The high idle power on the Framework ARM upgrade board shouldn’t be blamed solely on MetaComputing or CIX. Poor idle power efficiency is a long-standing issue on Linux laptops, especially with new platforms, so this looks more like an ecosystem-level power-management problem than a single-vendor failure.

What stands out to me is that Chinese companies are actually shipping hardware and pushing into every possible market segment. Their decentralized, diversified corporate ecosystem seems to enable fast experimentation and broad market penetration.

Comment by csdreamer7 4 days ago

https://metacomputing.io/products/metacomputing-arm-aipc

Save you a click or two. Looking at this I have so many questions. Am I buying a mainboard? It is not clear. It lists ports: it only supports 2 ports? You have four options with 16/32gigs and 1tb of storage? Is the storage soldiered? If so, what is the storage? emmc? Soldiered memory seems to be a given in the ARM ecosystem, but the storage is completely unacceptable on a framework mainboard.

The only difference between the pro and the regular is that the second port is a usb-c over an hdmi? I am assuming this is the mainboard even supporting framework extension cards.

No listed Linux compatibility support. Forget if the NPU even works in Linux; I do not even know if this will boot Linux because the company did not bother to submit devicetree patches to the kernel for their SOC. No listed Windows support even.

This company's copy is absolutely terrible.

Comment by woodrowbarlow 4 days ago

my impression was the "pro" is the same board but comes with a framework 13 chassis, but yeah the lack of explicit details does not inspire confidence.

Comment by t312227 3 days ago

hello,

as alwas: imho. (!)

is it possible to install for example a current "vanilla" debian arm64 on this mainboard!?

what i mean by that:

write the "official" debian arm64 installation image to a thumbdrive, press some key & boot into the installation!?

and run the resulting system with the distributions "offical" kernel from the debian arm64-architecture!?

w/o jumping thru a few "hoops" like a lion in a circus ... ;)

i know ... the "openness" of the descendants of ibm pc at compatible machines was some kind of a "historical" error by ibm, but i got used to it!!

i like to "own" hardware i bought with my hard-earned money. i heavily prefer hardware, which is easily bootable from "inoffical" boot-medias - read: FOSS ... eg. linux/*BSD/...

and i'm not interested in "clamped down" hardware a la "most" available ARM boards - regardless of notebooks/tablets/phones ...

just my 0.02€

Comment by Nav_Panel 4 days ago

I've had a Framework 13 for several years now, so I'm excited to see this kind of thing start to happen. Praying the next one out is a GPU/tensor workload unit so I'm not stuck at home on my desktop when I want to mess around with local AI models...

Comment by daft_pink 4 days ago

The real problem with ARM is whether the software vendors are really supporting it.

I use business software everyday that doesn’t support ARM, because of it’s licensing system doesn’t work on ARM processors.

Instead of fixing it, the company just sells cloud hosted windows licenses for $100 per user.

Comment by 4 days ago

Comment by ktallett 4 days ago

The complaints about battery life are valid however I see this as a test board to help bring more Linux programs to life on ARM. It can also be useful for porting other OSes like Haiku.

Comment by timpera 4 days ago

Windows 11 ARM64 is the best operating system I've ever used for a laptop. Really excited to see this, although I wish this was a Snapdragon X CPU.

Comment by j45 4 days ago

It does make me wish I could drop in a macbook air motherboard into a framework to get a differnet kind of ARM processor.

Comment by Havoc 4 days ago

Pity it’s not snapdragon. That may have improved chance of snapdragon Linux becoming viable

Comment by einpoklum 4 days ago

Great, now there's just the matter of getting a proper keyboard, rather the junk that most laptops these days have.

https://kickingandstreaming.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/x2...

Comment by NoSalt 4 days ago

I would love to have a Framework laptop, but there is no guarantee the company will be around as long as, say, Lenovo, Dell, Apple, etc., and I would hate to get used to being able to customize on the fly, then have to go back to a run-of-the-mill laptop just because Framework went out of business.

Comment by flankstaek 4 days ago

Better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all. Why not buy the Framework, support the business, and have a laptop that's making you happy while it's around?

There's no guarantee any company lasts forever. What's the point in not using something now because it might be gone in the future?

Comment by vaylian 4 days ago

In the worst case you would have used your Framework just like a regular laptop from Lenovo, Dell or Apple. You might not gain much, but you also don't lose anything.

But that's just the worst case.

Comment by nish__ 4 days ago

If the company goes under, someone else will probably start manufacturing parts. Their CAD designs are open sourced on GitHub.

Comment by cmrdporcupine 4 days ago

These Snapdragon X processors have some drama around not having decent Linux support, right?

EDIT: Sorry, not SnapdragonX - apparently I can't read.

Also, who is "MetaComputing" and can I trust them with my money? Something about the big "Web 3 Integrated Devices" branding on their landing page makes me less than enthusiastic. Otherwise I'd be hovering over 'buy'

Comment by tencentshill 4 days ago

They are selling a configuration that costs $810.00 on Framework's website for only $549.00. Zero actual info on the about page or Google. I would treat it with suspicion at best.

Comment by ndiddy 4 days ago

They're just selling the motherboard on its own, not a whole laptop. To make if a complete system, you'd have to buy a laptop chassis from Framework's parts site and install the motherboard yourself.

Comment by evanjrowley 4 days ago

You can get a whole laptop if you purchase the "Pro" option that comes with the Framework 13 chassis: https://metacomputing.io/products/metacomputing-arm-aipc